Literalness of the adversary

I believe it’s something in between….that there is a literal “devil” and his evil spirits, and at times seek to influence us to do evil. But I also think we’re our own worst enemy in this life and made decisions–independent of their attempts to influence–to do things that aren’t right.

In the same way, I believe that people are capiable of doing good things on their own.

I don’t know, but there might be some symbolism of Lucifer in the plan of salvation.

When interpreting the symbolism I try to internalize the characters in the fables. Like I am both Adam and Eve in the endowment and each represents a different part of me or thought I might have. Same with Laman, Lemuel, and Nephi. Consider this:

Lucifer’s argument that we should not have free will represents the thought that we do not, that we are victims to circumstance. Casting out Lucifer (the thought) and the spirits (feelings) that follow him is symbolic of redirecting the thought and the feelings that follow it into non existence before it manifests as self destructive behaviors; it is taking the initiative and consciously making decisions. Having no agency represents helplessness, which prevents our goals from being realized and prevents our plans (plan of salvation) from ever developing.

I have no problem with the idea that there is a literal “evil god” as the counterpart to a literal “good god”. I also have no problem with it being symbolic of the internal battle we all face in life – that “ye are gods” and also that “ye are devils”.

I think there is a tendency to blame the devil for things that actually are our own fault, and to use that blame to justify not acting as we should in this life, so I tend to lean more, in practicality, toward the “natural man” view.

Yep, after growing up in a house and community that had this constant fear if their own thoughts projecting them as satan.

Mmm, the amount if damage I watched unfold from those thoughts. Instant anger and fear at a high level. Usually taken out on another they supposed was the catalyst for the “satan intrusion”.

Later on I learned that was a normal response for many people if they fear someone is playing inside their mind.

I want to say this is totally independent of literal or symbolic thought on this… I do not declare or do I care if it(he) is real or not since it doesn’t change my life in the slightest either way.

The reason being because I watched people instantly get angry or fearful at their own thoughts which they could not control. Fearing that they were being overtaken by a force they could not see.

I have zero problem with literal or symbolic.

But I have a huge problem with the damage I have seen that idea do when taken very seriously.

The orthodox Rabis I talk to as you say frame it a little differently.

The belief that in each of is a capacity to do good and also a natural “evil” inclination.

This evil inclination and good actually aligns very nicely with what we know about human thought and subconscious thought.

So that is the route I take. Because it aligns both religion and science very nicely and most important … It’s a much more healthy thought process and mental stable attitude when you begin to recognize that it’s just your brain unconscious thought projecting into the public realm about events in your life that caused fear, anger , and other powerful emotions .

No need to try to fight a invisible entity, even if he is real. But a way to recognize your own thoughts and inner must fears and anger, maybe even suppressed. Acknowledge it. Replace it with positive thought, or pleasant things.

No need to stress yourself fighting something you can’t fight.

People will always have these thoughts, sometimes evil and sometimes good based in our own fears and joys.

I like J.R.R. Toilkens quote on this

Always remember, Bilbo, when your heart wants lifting…

.think of pleasant things.

Non dogmatic, simple, helpful. It takes care of your conscious mind.

Don’t try to fight against the subconscious. That’s a battle that will scare any who try consistently.

He’s a fetchin jerk.

LOVE it!! :thumbup: :clap:

I have no problem with the idea that there is a literal “evil god” as the counterpart to a literal “good god”. I also have no problem with it being symbolic of the internal battle we all face in life – that “ye are gods” and also that “ye are devils”.

I think there is a tendency to blame the devil for things that actually are our own fault, and to use that blame to justify not acting as we should in this life, so I tend to lean more, in practicality, toward the “natural man” view.

I agree with you, Curtis, especially the latter part about blaming Satan for the consequences caused by our own decisions. I also believe some things just happen without the influence of God or Satan, and neither deserves credit or blame. Fact is, if Satan is real and does have influence over our thoughts, he really wouldn’t have to work very hard because God’s own remoteness makes it somewhat easy to do what the adversary apparently does. I have of late leaned toward the idea that Lucifer/Satan is not necessarily one individual, but like Adam and Eve is representative of a concept or idea. As Unknown said, I think we are all Adam and Eve, and possibly we’re all the adversary – perhaps our own personal devils and hopefully not the devils to someone else. In psychology there’s probably some evidence of that, although I don’t necessarily believe everything psychologists theorize because the study is still so shallow and there is so much we don’t know.

The issue with satan and evil in LDS theology is the chicken and the egg.

The plan of salvation requires an evil chicken, but at the time of discussion of the plan of salvation, Lucifer was still an egg.

But someone had to be the chicken. Was it just assumed that one egg would willingly be the chicken?

Did the farmer plan for there to be bad eggs, or was it just a 33% probability of being a bad egg in the egg farm?

In either case, if the evil chicken simply refused to cooperate with the farmer by not influencing the good eggs, the plan wouldn’t work, so the chicken has to be in league with the farmer. In essence, the chicken isn’t evil, but is being compelled to act the part of evil. But anyone who has actually raised chickens knows they are actually pretty stupid. A stupid chicken would think that it could fight against the creator of the universe and win, while a smart chicken would adopt a zen philosophy and do nothing.

If there have been 100 billion people born (good eggs) on the planet, that means there are at least 50 billion bad eggs trying to influence us. At today’s rate, that means that there are 7 bad eggs allocated to tormenting you in your daily life. As an aside, that means Adam and Eve would have each had at least 25 billion bad eggs tormenting them. In essence the world becomes less evil over time, as there are too few bad eggs to go round.

I want to live in a world where people do good things because they love each other and they do bad things because of simple bad judgment or bad circumstances.

Yep, it’s a powerful tool (frame of mind)for thinking positive.