Home Page Forums History and Doctrine Discussions Senior Apostles Who did Not Become President

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  • #208608
    Anonymous
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    In the post-martyrdom era of the Church, 15 men have become President of the Church after being the Senior Apostle, but only eight have been Senior Apostle, and NOT become a Church President:

    – Heber C Kimball

    – Franklin D Richards

    – George Q Cannon

    – Brigham Young, Jr.

    – Francis M Lyman

    – Anthon H Lund

    – Rudger Clawson

    – Marion G Romney

    Some notes:

    – Thomas B Marsh was the Senior Apostle when the Quorum was first organized, but had been excommunicated long before the establishment of the concept that the Senior Apostle would become the President of the Church.

    – HCKimball was only 13 days younger than BY and that established the order in the original quorum. If he had been born two weeks earlier, he would have become the Church President, rather than BY, and BY would have been third, well after the emigration to Utah. It’s an interesting historical question to think of how this would have affected the Church. BY was probably exactly what the Church needed in order to stay together and migrate west. He was a very effective organizer and leader, whose greatest strength was his ability to adapt to changing circumstances. On the other hand, BY never professed much of a prophetic or spiritual role. HCK, on the other hand, was well known as a visionary and a spiritual giant. He frequently was called upon to expound upon the mysteries of the Kingdom. He even recorded revelations that he received while BY was Church President. Conversely, God seemed not to know where BY lived. It’s very probable that if HCK had become president, prophetic revelation would have continued. Before you get too far along the ‘what if’ line, though, it should be noted that both BY and HCK were completely devoted to the concept of polygamy.

    – Lorenzo Snow outlived two younger Senior Apostles. Franklin D Richards died at age 78, 22 months before Snow. George Q Cannon died just 6 months before Snow, at age 74. President Snow passed away at age 87.

    – Four men were ordained Apostles on the same day, in February, 1849. As has always been the custom, seniority of Apostles ordained at the same time was established by age. This was the reason that Lorenzo Snow became the 5th President of the Church, and FDRichards became the Senior Apostle, even though they had been ordained on the same day 49 and a half years earlier.

    – The longest term as Senior Apostle, among those listed above was Rudger Clawson, who was in that position for 22 years, and who died two years before he would have become the Church’s 8th President. A close second was HCKimball, who was Senior Apostle for 21 years.

    – George Q Cannon was English-born, joining the Church, along with his family, at age 13 and emigrating to Utah two years later. I don’t know a lot about him, but I know he was an eloquent speaker, and didn’t seem to be as hard-line as his contemporaries. In fact, British Saints tended to be more spiritually-minded, rather than theocracy-minded, in those days.

    – Anthon H Lund was a non-native English speaker. He was born in Denmark, joined the Church at the age of 12, and emigrated to Utah at age 18.

    – Both Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt would have taken turns leading the Church after the death of BY, but both had been out of the quorum for brief stints during the Missouri years. The Church convened a council in 1875, just two years before BY’s death, and BY ruled that the seniority of these two was affected, and declared that John Taylor was actually the Senior Apostle. This was particularly interesting in the case of Hyde, because he had served as the president of the Q12 for 28 years, 21 years as Acting President (though it wasn’t called that then), while HCKimball served in the FP, and seven years as the President during which time he was considered the Senior Apostle. Hyde passed away 15 months after BY, and Pratt passed away three years later.

    #282319
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Didn’t you miss Sidney Rigdon?

    At the time of Joseph Smith’s death wasn’t he the senior member of the quorum?

    It could be argued that he wasn’t in good standing but, he wasn’t excommunicated yet either.

    If the Church was going to use strict seniority shouldn’t SR of been President instead of BY?

    I’m sure I’m missing something.

    Please let me know what that is.

    #282320
    Anonymous
    Guest

    There are also certain church leaders who have had massive effects but never been president. McConkie, Tvedtnes, Talmage have had greater effect on the church and its culture, than presidents such as Hunter.

    Boyd K. Packer may be in this category soon.

    #282321
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Mike wrote:

    Didn’t you miss Sidney Rigdon?

    At the time of Joseph Smith’s death wasn’t he the senior member of the quorum?

    It could be argued that he wasn’t in good standing but, he wasn’t excommunicated yet either.

    If the Church was going to use strict seniority shouldn’t SR of been President instead of BY?

    I’m sure I’m missing something.

    Please let me know what that is.


    Hey, Mike, good to hear from you again. Actually Sidney Rigdon was never an Apostle. He was in the First Presidency from its formation in 1832 all the way up to the martyrdom. He was estranged from the Church, but not completely out of it. In fact, only 8 months before the martyrdom, JS had tried to get SR removed from the FP, but the Church assembly voted to retain him, after an impassioned plea by SR. Subsequently, SR became the VP running mate of JS in 1844. So, his involvement with the Church was pretty enigmatic at this time. When the famous conference was held to determine the succession, about six weeks after the death of JS and HS, SR asked the assembly to accept his as the “guardian” of the Church, based on his ranking position in the FP. BY asserted that the FP was dissolved and that the hightest quorum in the Church was the Q12, and that they had all the keys. Amasa Lyman, who was also a counselor in the FP, spoke and threw his support behind the Q12. So, it was established at that time that the FP did not continue to operate after the death of the President, and that the Q12 would become the leading organization until the FP was reorganized.

    Now, had JS died alone, and Hyrum had survived, it seems likely to me that HS would have become Church President. HS was “Assistant to the President” and was clearly JS’s right-hand-man, and was in many ways the “enforcer” of JS’s programs.

    #282322
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Yep, Hyrum was to Joseph as Aaron was to Moses – which is interesting, since it was Hyrum’s descendants who ended up leading the LDS Church, not Jospeh’s.

    In a very real way, we belong to Hyrum’s church.

    #282323
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks guys for the clarification.

    #282324
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Marion G Romney is a somewhat interesting case from those listed above. I had always loved President Romney, but in his latter years, I can remember thinking at the time about what would happen if he outlived ETB.

    The last time MGR spoke in General Conference was in October 1982. It was a touching talk (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1982/10/gratitude-and-thanksgiving?lang=eng). He struggled to read the talk he had written, and then went off script at about 8:30 into it. He wrote a talk for the April, 1983 conference, but it was read from the pulpit by his son, George. The last time I recall seeing MGR in General Conference was in Oct, 84, a full year before the death of SWK, and while he made an appearance, he didn’t speak. When ETB became president, the following year, he moved MGR back to the Q12 from the FP. Howard W Hunter was immediately made Acting President of the Q12. There have been periods when the current Church President has been incapacitated by age, but in the case of MGR, for two and a half years, the Church stood on the brink of turning over the reigns of the Church to a new Church President who was clearly incapable of being anything more than the president in name only.

    #282325
    Anonymous
    Guest

    We also had the years when the 3rd Councilor (and then 2nd, when Elder Tanner died) in the First Presidency (Gordon B. Hinckley) effectively ran the Church, since the President and other counselors were in bad health. It’s pretty clear that Presidents Kimball, Tanner and Romney weren’t doing much actual leading while Pres. Hinckley served with them in the FP, and the same is true of Pres. Benson at the end of his term.

    When you look at the timeline, Pres. Hinckley served in the FP for almost 27 consecutive years (much of it spent as the primary administrator of the Church in practical terms), with a short hiatus when Pres. Hunter became the President of the Church.

    #282326
    Anonymous
    Guest

    On Own Now wrote:

    Marion G Romney is a somewhat interesting case from those listed above. I had always loved President Romney, but in his latter years, I can remember thinking at the time about what would happen if he outlived ETB.

    The last time MGR spoke in General Conference was in October 1982. It was a touching talk (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1982/10/gratitude-and-thanksgiving?lang=eng). He struggled to read the talk he had written, and then went off script at about 8:30 into it. He wrote a talk for the April, 1983 conference, but it was read from the pulpit by his son, George. The last time I recall seeing MGR in General Conference was in Oct, 84, a full year before the death of SWK, and while he made an appearance, he didn’t speak. When ETB became president, the following year, he moved MGR back to the Q12 from the FP. Howard W Hunter was immediately made Acting President of the Q12. There have been periods when the current Church President has been incapacitated by age, but in the case of MGR, for two and a half years, the Church stood on the brink of turning over the reigns of the Church to a new Church President who was clearly incapable of being anything more than the president in name only.

    I recall wondering about what might happen then, too. I recall having a conversation about it in priesthood meeting, actually, and the prevailing thought was that they might have an “acting president” like they do with the Q12 or that they would just go ahead with the FP with perhaps an additional counselor. GBH was pretty much already running the church and definitely doing all the leg work at that time anyway, and had originally been a third counselor. In the days of DOM, there had at one time been several additional counselors.

    If BKP’s health continues to decline the same situation could occur. Truthfully, despite his good health TSM could go any time from a heart attack, stroke or whatever – it just happens.

    #282327
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Not to be morbid, but it would be interesting if Pres. Monson dies before Pres. Packer, but Pres. Packer is incapacitated. If the current FP counselors remained the same, Presidents Eyring and Uchtdorf would be the active administrators of the Church – and that would not be a bad thing, I think we all would agree.

    It would be a crowning irony if the FP under Pres. Packer was the most progressive presidency for a long time, given his reputation.

    #282328
    Anonymous
    Guest

    At least, GBH knew exactly what he was doing when he got the top job.

    The system we have is NOT ideal. But I know why it exists. It’s simple, it prevents conflict and schisms. It does have the advantage of experience, but disadvantage of physical age.

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