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Well, our seminary teacher met with my wife the other day on non-church business, and he mentioned the stake has short-listed me as a Seminary teacher. I should expect a phone call, he said. From their perspective, it must make sense as I’m a teacher of 20 years, former Stake Young Men’s president, ward young men’s president etcetera. My daughter is active in the seminary program as well. Teachers are hard to find. Naturally, I have no desire to do this:
a) no time with heft responsibilities in the community
b) don’t feel I can teach the gospel anymore; there is too much about it that bothers me
c) I don’t really believe in the Seminary program. I feel its outdated in its delivery model, hard on the kids, and the parents.
d) no desire.
e) tired of teaching. I’ve done it my whole life, for decades, and it is not a growth area for me
f) the thought of having to deal with the compliance issues you have with youth every day of the week is tough to imagine.
g) the parents, for some reason, cut us out of the car pool for the first year and half, would not return phone calls, and other items we found disturbing, which meant we singlehehandedly drove our daughter across town every day of the week for a couple years.
We’ve talked about how to handle interviews with priesthood leaders here many times
a) don’t share anything specific or divergent, or it will come back to haunt you
b) provide vague hope of full temple-worthiness some day
c) assert yourself
I have a couple questions — does a seminary teacher have to be a temple recommend holder? I’m concerned they’ll make me confront that issue when they interview me.
Also, I have no desire to even meet with the stake leader (SP counselor) who will expect me to invest 1.5 hours in driving across town to meet with him. Of course, that is a snub, particularly when my daughter is active in the program.
I can understand your reluctance. My DW was an early morning seminary teacher and it is a very demanding calling. In answer to your question, all of them I have ever known here have been. Our current teacher is openly gay, but as far as I know holds a TR. SD, You don’t have to give a reason when declining a call or a request. All you have to say is that it’s not going to work for you.
In fact, people who line up excuses can be frustrating, because they don’t get to the heard of the matter. For example, if I were talking to you about the Seminary calling, you might say that you can’t do something that early in the morning, OK, I tell you that we’ll do it after school. It’s too far to drive… we’ll move it to a closer location… My wife is too busy as the RS counselor… we will find a different calling for her… I don’t like one of the kids… we will kick him out of the program… I don’t really know the church doctrine well… here is a copy of Mormon Doctrine… I don’t have a car… we will have a ward member pick you up every day…
In other words, if you have a reason why you can’t do it, then that is a factor that they can try to resolve. If you just say, “Thanks for thinking about me, I’m flattered, but it’s not going to work for me… how are you doing in your March Madness pool in the Stake?” then there is no need for further explanation or haggling. You have YOUR reasons, and that is all that matters.
I agree with On Own Now. Don’t give them reasons; just tell them that you appreciate being asked but simply can’t do it with everything that’s going on in your life right now. If they ask you to think about it, tell them you will – and then, I assume, tell them the exact same thing in a day or so. I believe in thinking and praying about callings, but not in the “in order to get the confirmation that automatically should come” model. I’ve been surprised before that I felt like accepting a calling at the time, but I doubt this will be such a time for you. This is one calling I think you will still feel isn’t right for this time no matter now long or much you think about it.
SilentDawning wrote:I have a couple questions — does a seminary teacher have to be a temple recommend holder? I’m concerned they’ll make me confront that issue when they interview me.
Maybe it varies depending on supply and demand, but I’d be really surprised if a temple recommend isn’t usually required.
I’m sure my seminary teacher didn’t have a TR, but that was in the 80s. Who knows now? I would add that you have to do what is best for you, but as a parent I wish we had more seminary teachers like you and fewer who are know-nothing black-and-white CES guys. Thanks — I appreciate the advice. I do have one further question. I don’t want to drive all the way across town to meet with the Stake leader (the SP counselor) about it. Do you see it as an inappropriate “snub” to simply ask the person who asks for the appointment if we can do it over the phone? I don’t want to ignore the phone call if it comes, but I don’t want to invest all the time in going across town as I’m pretty overwhelmed with everything else I’m doing right now. Comments welcome.
I think it would be appropriate to ask to talk on the phone. I also think it would be funny to ask to text each other. Then, you could put the little emoticons after you say no. đź‘ż SilentDawning wrote:Thanks — I appreciate the advice. I do have one further question. I don’t want to drive all the way across town to meet with the Stake leader (the SP counselor) about it. Do you see it as an inappropriate “snub” to simply ask the person who asks for the appointment if we can do it over the phone? I don’t want to ignore the phone call if it comes, but I don’t want to invest all the time in going across town as I’m pretty overwhelmed with everything else I’m doing right now.
I see nothing wrong with asking to do it over the phone. I’ve been released and called over the phone and I’ve released and called people over the phone. Especially if the interviewee asks for it it seems appropriate.
Last year I was called in to speak with a member of the stake presidency. They asked me to be the second counselor in the EQ presidency (which was weird since I had never once attended EQ in the 4 years we lived there) and I turned it down. A couple of days later, I got a call asking me to come in again. I can’t remember who was making the call—not one of the presidency, anyway. I asked why they wanted me to come back, and the brother on the phone said they wanted me to reconsider. It wasn’t easy, but I just told them no right there on the phone. I just didn’t see the point of going in again. I don’t know how “appropriate” it was. Back then I was essentially inactive and didn’t much care what they thought of me. These days I might try to be a little more careful. I don’t know how helpful that is. But I have a decent feel for the situation you’re in. I hope it turns out better than you hope! SD – I can tell you as someone who’s been involved in seminary on and off, on many levels, for a long time, you need to be very frank with them and tell them that there is NO way that the calling will work for you right now. It’s an incredibly demanding calling and is challenging for even the most TBM’s. Seminary, though, is actually one of those callings that’s easier to say no to and it happens all the time. If it’s overwhelming for you to drive to meet the counselor right now, then they shouldn’t even be considering you. If you are only on the “short list” then the call might not ever come, anyway. Aside from all that, here is what SP’s follow in calling seminary teachers:
Quote:Stake Seminary and Institute Teachers and Supervisors
Our purpose is to help youth and young adults understand and rely on the teachings and Atonement of Jesus Christ, qualify for the blessings of the temple, and prepare themselves, their families, and others for eternal life with their Father in Heaven.
Qualifications
Stake seminary and institute teachers and supervisors must be worthy to hold a temple recommend (see “Stake Presidency” in section 11.1.1 of Handbook 1: Stake Presidents and Bishops [2010], 102). They should also:
Strive to emulate the Savior in their lives, including how they live, teach, and dress.
Enjoy associating with young people and believe they are eager to learn the gospel.
Be available to prepare lessons, teach classes, and attend regularly scheduled inservice meetings.
Duties and Responsibilities
Teach Effectively
Teach students the doctrines and principles of the gospel as found in the scriptures and the words of the prophets. Teach them in a way that leads to understanding and edification.
Help students fulfill their role in the learning process and prepare to teach the gospel to others.
Use approved curriculum and materials.
Seek to Develop as a Teacher
Attend and participate in faculty and area inservice meetings.
Visit regularly with their supervisor to obtain feedback and guidance.
Enroll and Encourage Students
Help parents and priesthood leaders identify and enroll all potential students.
Cultivate a loving, respectful, and purposeful environment in the classroom.
Keep accurate and on-time student enrollment, attendance, and completion records.
Encourage all students to complete class with credit.
Help students graduate and assist the priesthood in graduation exercises.
It’s not overwhelming so to drive over to the Stake Center other than seeming to be a non-productive use of time when I know I will say “no”. Also, it poses risks that I’ll use the meeting as a forum to vent about my church frustrations. Something I have to exert a lot of self-discipline to keep at bay all the time anyway. When I read over the job description, it certainly is not for me. The idea of having to attend inservice meetings on how to teach when I’m a veteran teacher, teacher improvement coordinator, and wanting to stretch into non-teaching areas is typical of the kind of time wasting that I have grown used to in the church. Yes, we can always improve, but at what point have you achieved a level of competence where the time invested in receiving training is better invested in other areas? Other than training on administrative policy which might be new, the rest of it may well be a rehash of the teaching principles I’ve been applying for several decades.
You are right, the phone call may never come, but I would like to be prepared for when it does as such is my character. I’m famous for realizing what I SHOULD have said two weeks after the conversation. I have learned to prepare in advance and then have no regrets. The things I would expect to hear are:
1. Your daughter is benefiting from the program and you’re not putting anything into it (a kind of guilt call to duty).
2. You are not being a good example to your daughter in not having a TR.
3. We need you, the youth need you.
4. Put the Kingdom of God first and all the other stuff second — get your priorities straight. Leaders are also famous for promising blessing that you will “never regret” when you put the Lord first — when no one knows for sure those blessings will actually come.
Anyway, I have answers for all of those things, but the tendency is for leaders to take a 1/2 hour conversation and then boil it down to a pejorative summary like “he’s gone off the deep end” or “he’s bitter toward the church” or “he got offended” or some simplistic explanation that paints the reluctant one in a bad light.
Anyway, I know what is expected now and it only solidified the idea that this is something I’d rather not do right now.
Thanks for sharing this from the perspective of your inner-circle knowledge in Seminary administration.
Like I said, seminary is one of those callings where they don’t seem to question as much if you say no. Having said that, I also sincerely hope they don’t extend a call to you to save you from being forced into a position of having to say no. That’s one thing that is so difficult and unique about this church. My MIL is Lutheran and when she doesn’t want to do something, she just says no and no one ever questions it or tries to guilt her into to doing it. She thinks it’s crazy all the time (and other things) we’re supposed to devote to the church. I’ve never told her this, but I agree. I also agree with you 100% about inservice training. I think about 85% of seminary teachers feel the same way. It can be a huge waste of time to people already giving more time than just about anyone else in the church. In released-time seminary, teachers have to have a teaching credential (and they get paid.) Why don’t they require that for early morning seminary teachers?
Silent Dawning: I don’t really know you and I could be totally off base so forgive me if this is offensive, going the opposite direction as others, but here goes.
Your daughter wants to do this seminary program, right?
Think of it as an opportunity to spend an hour a day teaching her and her friends ON YOUR TERMS and make it worth it to them. In my observation about 70% of early morning seminary teachers are bird brains (90% of full time CES teachers) and it turns into a thrash, an enormous damaging waste of critical time. That is what is likely about to happen (Hawkgrrrl agrees) if they are desperate enough to have you on the short list and you bail. This for me would weigh out all else, including the over-baked descriptions in handbooks and your other recent concerns. The true spirit of pre-correlation Mormonism; you write the handbook, you define it.
Your original points:
1. No time.
You are driving her there anyway, so you are already there (90% of success is showing up).
You’ve been preparing for this all your life. Don’t take any more time to prepare any further. Teach spontaneously “by the Spirit”.
(Skip in-service if it isn’t worth it or volunteer to teach it the way you know it should be taught.)
2.Teach gospel.
The truth is the gospel. The current teachings of the church are supposed to be a close approximation of the truth but do not define the truth. Quite the opposite. We are not required to believe or teach anything that is not true. So as the appointed teacher you are allowed to teach your own approximation of the truth (with discretion of course). It is their responsibility to correct you or boot you if they disagree; so make them do their job, don’t do it for them. Most people greatly over-estimate the ill effects of teaching teenagers a few heretical ideas. Teach critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, how to find answers to questions, etc.
3. Seminary outdated.
You got that right and you think the youth don’t notice? Update the teaching methods, to the ones Jesus used. Simple, compassionate, non-judgmental, etc. Some of my ideas would be to have the older, more articulate students (often trouble makers) teach some of the classes. Use stories or a question-and-answer format to teach students how to look up information for themselves on their infernal digital devices they are constantly gawking at anyway.
4.No desire. Can’t help that. I’m trying to change that. See above and below.
5. Tired of teaching.
Lowell Bennion once was asked if he ever got tired of teaching BOM 101 every year. He replied that if he taught BOM every year it would get mighty tiresome. But he teaches students and they change very year so it is always exciting. Your daughter is not tiresome to teach is she? Or her friends?
6. Youth compliance and discipline.
Use a modification of the scouting model of boy leadership. Turn almost all of the discipline over to the youth leaders. Give them ownership of the class and remind them that you are not in charge but more like a consultant or a hired expert. Blame them gently when it doesn’t work (and it won’t from time to time) but then teach them how to make it work by trial and error. Most youth are harder on their peers than adults and will need to be reined in.
Elections are the key to the credibility of leadership. Allow them to happen and allow the youth to live with an elected imperfect leader for a few weeks. Don’t forget that women can be extremely effective leaders but in the LDS culture at this age they might need a little nudge. (They might not).
7. Social issues, snobbery or whatever it is.
This is a chance to change that. Seminary is more about social integration than about learning anything testable in the academic sense. Group therapy more than classroom instruction. Sounds like if the youth are anything like their parents they need it.
Secret: The single most important characteristic of a great early morning seminary teacher is…. BRINGS GOOD FOOD! You known da**ed well those kids didn’t get up in time to eat a decent breakfast. As Brigham Young used to say about the Indians, “it’s easier to feed them than fight them.” Have a back-up plan, but get the youth to bring you and their peers the food in turn; things like donuts or biscuits and gravy made the night before. Or my daughter’s favorite contribution: cinnamon rolls baking in the oven during seminary.
Appendix
Unintended consequences of early morning seminary:
Driving: You do realize that by far the most common way teenagers die is in traffic accidents. The single most critical skill you can teach a youth is safe, cautious driving habits. And at 6:00 am the roads are less crowded, more forgiving of mistakes and you have a chance to lecture a new driver non-stop for a few minutes every day. Don’t waste a single day of that “learner’s permit” period when they are required by law to have an adult with them to drive. Even if they didn’t hold seminary it would be worth it retrospectively just to get up and practice driving around every day at that hour. My daughter might have been a bit out of line when she bought an old red Celica off the internet with her money when she was 15 years old and we let her drive it to seminary every day but only with a parent riding with her. We later worked her little brother into the lineup so they each got three years of experience driving to seminary. We didn’t let her drive it to school or anywhere else until she was well prepared.
So when our kids asked in college if they could borrow the minivan and take some non-LDS friends to Florida or New Orleans for Spring break, we said in all sincerity, yes. But upon one condition: you do all of the driving because we trust you. (And the driver has more control over the other activities than the others will have). When we were in Cheyenne Wyoming heading to Utah and it started snowing I handed the keys to my daughter because she has sharper vision, better coordination, quicker reflexes, plenty of experience, etc. and we went into 9th grade early morning seminary driving mode with me riding shot gun where she had the benefit of my experience growing up in snow country, for what it was worth.
Partying: If your youth get up every day for early morning seminary and have tons of other activities keeping them busy the rest of the time, they will be too tired by Friday night to go out partying and getting drunk, stoned or layed. Won’t even be an issue. Just my observation…
It is worth it to keep your daughter in excellent seminary. But not in crappy seminary. You can make a big difference, if you wish.
Your points are taken, Mike, but driving there anyway is not the real time consumer in seminary. Even the bad teachers, if there is such a thing, spend much longer than the lesson time preparing for the lesson. Knowing SD, he would spend hours daily preparing these lessons – time he does not apparently have. It’s far more than just showing up – that’s not the 90% for the teacher.
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