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  • #208624
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Were the miracles regarding the pioneers true? or were they just stories.

    I was talking to a friend who lost her son a few months ago. Her faith is shaken to the core, as is her husbands. My heart goes out to them and breaks for the things well meaning members are saying to them at church. Such as “God has an amazing lesson for you through this trial”.

    She mentioned that God is no where to be found when she needs him the most and brought up something that I haven’t thought about in a long time… Pioneer miracles. She wanted to know why he healed the pioneers but wouldn’t heal her son. They seemed so prevalent in the times of JS, BY and the early members of the church. So why don’t we see them today?

    I tried searching the archives but only came across 17 miracles one. Why don’t we have miracles of healing these days? Is it because we don’t’ talk about them or do they not happen? Were those pioneer miracles made up? or did they look at things differently and perceive things differently.

    My sister supposedly had cancer on her foot, and when they went to operate it had disappeared. My mom has told that story over and over, and as stories usually do, it got miraculous the more times it was told. Is that what happened to the Mormon pioneer stories?

    Personally, I don’t believe in a God who intervenes. I have had too many prayers go “unanswered” and realized that if “He” only does what He is going to do why do I need to pray in the first place. Prayer means something completely different to me now.

    Yet, I have this child like part of me that can’t let all the stories of the past go completely… I want to know that they are either true, or false. I am trying to remember miraculous healing stories in my life, but I have none. Does that mean I don’t have faith?

    Yet, last week my 9 year old asked me to pray for her stomach, she instantly felt better. I believe that it was all in her head, or maybe an energy of some sort IS real and I removed some blocked energy. (I do chakra healing work professionally and I visualized white light going into her stomach as I prayed.. since my FC I tend to be more skeptical of everything, even the work that I do) Yet I feel energy moving at times, or at least I THINK I do… but then I think it might all just be in my head. Maybe there isn’t a simple answer. But I want an answer. I want to understand how healing works, physical and spiritual. I want to believe in healing within us OR in a healing from a greater source. Yet, I have a hard time believing in stories such as a lady going around a large rock to find fresh baked apple pies to feed her family to get through a long pioneer trek. If such things happen today, why don’t we hear about the. Do people keep them to themselves because we are such skeptics?

    #282457
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Miracles are in the eye of the beholder. When I was a faithful missionary, I saw many miracles having to do with healing. Now that I look back on it with my Atheist eyes, I believe they had nothing to do with God. Was I right then or am I right now? It depends on who you ask.

    As one who experienced what I thought were miracles at the time, I can tell you that faithful people will see miracles happen around them. That doesn’t mean that they will happen in a specific case where we want it to happen. It’s sort of like claiming that deja vu doesn’t happen because I can’t produce it when I most need it.

    #282458
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I relate to so much of what you say OTF, including the skepticism, and while I don’t call myself an atheist (I call myself deist) I also don’t believe in an interventionist God. I think there’s not really an answer to your question about the pioneer miracles. I think it’s a combination of things that you mentioned, but I mostly believe that the stories were embellished as they were repeated. And it’s like the “Mormon magic” I hear about all the time – the person telling the story may believe it was a miracle that he found his keys in time to go to the temple, but I just see it as happenstance. In many ways those stories are like scripture stories, though, meant to build faith. You’ve actually caused me to reflect a bit here and I’m going to have to ponder more. Why do I have a problem with modern fictional stories designed to build or promote faith yet I can believe scripture stories are not literal yet can build or promote faith?

    #282459
    Anonymous
    Guest

    This is very similar to the catalyst for my own faith crisis.

    In order to maintain my emotional health I have had to diminish my belief in an interventionist God. This means that I view most stories of the miraculous as coincidence, self fulfilling prophecy, perception, or some combination of the above.

    I do not preclude unexplainable good fortune happening. It does sometimes. But I don’t feel like I can depend on it or reliably repeat it and so it doesn’t form a part of my world view.

    In support of my worldview, I noticed some journal entries from JS where Emma was sick. They baptized her in the Mississippi and she felt better. The next day she was worse. I believe that some of what is reported to us as pioneer miracles is like the above scenario.

    As a complete tangent – In a book of historical fiction by Anita Stansfield there is a conversation between JS and Emma about why JS could seemingly heal others while their own children died. Joseph’s fictional response was something to the effect that God gave him spiritual knowledge of who should live and who should die. If I were Emma – I would be ticked!

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I tried searching the archives but only came across 17 miracles one. Why don’t we have miracles of healing these days? Is it because we don’t’ talk about them or do they not happen? Were those pioneer miracles made up? or did they look at things differently and perceive things differently.

    In the director’s commentary for 17 miracles they discuss how they do not have a list of the 17 miracles. Two people could watch the same movie and arrive at 17 differently or even arrive at different numbers of miracles. Would one person’s list be more right than another? Would it matter if something that you felt was miraculous was part of the creative license of the movie making process and had no basis in historical events?

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I was talking to a friend who lost her son a few months ago. Her faith is shaken to the core, as is her husbands. My heart goes out to them and breaks for the things well meaning members are saying to them at church. Such as “God has an amazing lesson for you through this trial”.

    I believe it comes down to this. I minimize, downplay, and even sometimes dismiss people’s belief in the world of the miraculous to validate my painful experience. I believe that well meaning individuals may minimize, downplay, and even sometimes dismiss people’s negative experiences to validate their belief in the world of the miraculous.

    One is not necessarily more noble than the other. I believe that both are part of human nature.

    My advice regarding this couple is to listen like you have perhaps never listened before. Be willing to be accepting and supportive of their feelings and thoughts even if thay don’t match with your own. They need a true friend right now.

    #282460
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I believe in the miraculous, so I don’t reject automatically any claim of miracles – but I also don’t believe most miraculous stories actually are miraculous, so I don’t believe automatically any claim of miracles.

    I also have no freaking clue why unexplainable things happen in some cases and don’t in others.

    Did the pioneers experience miracles? I would say: Absolutely, if miracles are defined as “unexplainable events” (especially at that time and in their situations), and even probably, if miracles are defined in traditional religious terms. Was there any rhyme or reason to it all? I don’t think so.

    Ultimately, then, my answer is: I don’t know – and I’m fine with not knowing.

    The following posted on my personal blog this morning, and I think it relates to this issue:

    Defining Spiritual Maturity” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2014/03/defining-spiritual-maturity.html)

    #282461
    Anonymous
    Guest

    We overlook the miracles amongst us.

    The very fact you exist and can reason about existence is a miracle.

    The very fact that we did not perish in a nuclear war between 1950 and 1990 is a miracle. So is the fact we have not been flattened by a comet.

    Healings happen ALL the time. All living humans have experienced it at some point.

    If we cannot see the miracles around us, we can’t see the bigger ones.

    #282462
    Anonymous
    Guest

    opentofreedom wrote:

    Were the miracles regarding the pioneers true? or were they just stories.

    The answer that feels right to me is “some of both.”

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I was talking to a friend . . . She wanted to know why he healed the pioneers but wouldn’t heal her son. They seemed so prevalent in the times of JS, BY and the early members of the church. So why don’t we see them today?

    The first thing that comes to mind is all the pioneers that were not healed. I read a lot of early journals and letters, some of them say their children were blessed to be healed but later died. Things like this happened a lot, it is hard for us to imagine how many infants and children died in those days. Somehow the pioneers were able to deal with it and hold onto their faith, I don’t know why today we have created different expectations.

    opentofreedom wrote:

    My sister supposedly had cancer on her foot, and when they went to operate it had disappeared. My mom has told that story over and over, and as stories usually do, it got miraculous the more times it was told. Is that what happened to the Mormon pioneer stories?

    Yes, I think it is human nature to make a story “better” the more times it is told.

    opentofreedom wrote:

    Personally, I don’t believe in a God who intervenes. I have had too many prayers go “unanswered” and realized that if “He” only does what He is going to do why do I need to pray in the first place. Prayer means something completely different to me now.

    I also don’t believe that God picks and chooses. I think much of what we see we design for our own eyes.

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I feel energy moving at times, or at least I THINK I do… but then I think it might all just be in my head.

    I also think there is something that ties us all together, one part of it we call Love.

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I have a hard time believing in stories such as a lady going around a large rock to find fresh baked apple pies to feed her family to get through a long pioneer trek.

    I don’t question that story (maybe some details), but I clearly see in my mind another ticked off pioneer that was trying to hide pies from everyone else!

    opentofreedom wrote:

    Do people keep them to themselves because we are such skeptics?

    I think we have learned to “hold our pearls close” and not share things with people that will not appreciate them. I’d say that is exactly the way it should be, both our comments here show the risk of sharing miracle stories openly.

    #282463
    Anonymous
    Guest

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I have a hard time believing in stories such as a lady going around a large rock to find fresh baked apple pies to feed her family to get through a long pioneer trek.

    Orson wrote:

    I don’t question that story (maybe some details), but I clearly see in my mind another ticked off pioneer that was trying to hide pies from everyone else!

    Ha. There is that possibility. To put a more positive spin on it I’m going to imagine one sister that sees another pioneer in need, makes her an apple pie but wants to give anonymously, the sister hides the pies and then comes up with some cockamamie reason for the less fortunate sister to go around a large rock. The less fortunate sister finds the pies, gives the credit to god… and she’s probably not incorrect in her assumption. ;)

    #282464
    Anonymous
    Guest

    nibbler wrote:

    opentofreedom wrote:

    I have a hard time believing in stories such as a lady going around a large rock to find fresh baked apple pies to feed her family to get through a long pioneer trek.

    Orson wrote:

    I don’t question that story (maybe some details), but I clearly see in my mind another ticked off pioneer that was trying to hide pies from everyone else!

    Ha. There is that possibility. To put a more positive spin on it I’m going to imagine one sister that sees another pioneer in need, makes her an apple pie but wants to give anonymously, the sister hides the pies and then comes up with some cockamamie reason for the less fortunate sister to go around a large rock. The less fortunate sister finds the pies, gives the credit to god… and she’s probably not incorrect in her assumption. ;)

    That could be the next GC talk! 😯

    #282465
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Oddly enough the pie story is fantastic, but the details don’t strike me as something someone would imagine. Why apple pies? Why not some more obvious food?

    #282466
    Anonymous
    Guest

    If we were to catalogue all the times individuals prayed for intervention and did not get anything against those times they did I think your would find it very lopsided indeed. Anecdotal stores told and retold are not miraculous. Every story grows with the retelling. Things that are ordinary become extraordinary. Do some people recover from a terrible illness? Sure they do, maybe 1 out of a 1000. Hardly miraculous. Miraculous would be an amputee growing a leg back, or a blind person from birth suddenly seeing.

    Did the pioneers see miracles? Maybe but no more than what you see today.

    Could God create a miracle? I suppose so but it does not seem to be in his tool bag.

    #282467
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Cadence, I have experienced what I believe to be miracles (things that are unexplainable without some directing hand outside of humanity) at least two times in my life. I’ve considered them every which way possible, and I can’t see them as anything else.

    Thus, as I said earlier, I don’t discount others’ stories of the miraculous automatically. I don’t accept them automatically, but I don’t reject them automatically, either. I don’t claim to understand them to any degree whatsoever, but my own experiences lead me to believe that miracles do happen.

    #282468
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Old-Timer wrote:

    Cadence, I have experienced what I believe to be miracles (things that are unexplainable without some directing hand outside of humanity) at least two times in my life. I’ve considered them every which way possible, and I can’t see them as anything else.

    Thus, as I said earlier, I don’t discount others’ stories of the miraculous automatically. I don’t accept them automatically, but I don’t reject them automatically, either. I don’t claim to understand them to any degree whatsoever, but my own experiences lead me to believe that miracles do happen.


    I do not want to discount your experience. I to have had things in my life I can not explain. But to me they are just that not explainable, but they are also not something that is impossible.

    We need to remind ourselves, improbable is not the same as impossible.

    #282469
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I believe that many of the miracles we hear about are stories elaborated on over time. There may be some kernel of truth at their core but that truth is long lost to time. But we take comfort in these stories. Rollo May (an existential psychologist) believed that many individuals’ distress was due to the lack of myth in their lives. He didn’t use that word to mean “untrue story” but rather to mean “meaningful structure”. He was all for these “myths” if they give our lives meaning.

    A few years back, a woman in my ward was bearing her testimony and telling us about a horrific accident that her daughter had been in. This accident killed two of her young grandchildren and severely injured another who is still recuperating several years later. She told us how as she walked into the hospital to see her family she suddenly saw one of her dead grandchildren standing there jumping up and down in excitement exulting over her new bodiless state. It renewed her faith in God and gave her great comfort to see her recently deceased granddaughter so happy. Did this grief stricken grandmother really see such a thing? I suppose I have my doubts about its reality. However, there is no way on earth that I am going to try to dissuade her from believing a story that gave her such joy in a time of great trial. No one would.

    #282470
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The greatest miracle is a change of heart.

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