Manipulated Obedience?

Yes I agree completely that the church uses manipulation to control members. Look at TR questions, if you aren’t following the prescribed list you can’t watch your children get married in the US. That is a HUGE threat! The church could easily allow for civil ceremonies first and then temple marriages but that change would dramatically lessen the control it had over members. I get annoyed that we teach about free agency but then use very real threats and outward markers to keep people toeing the line.

my siblings are DANG good people. Like the best of the best in every way that matters. Kind, compassionate, thoughtful, and generous.

The Church does have a way of producing really good people, doesn’t it?

my siblings are DANG good people. Like the best of the best in every way that matters. Kind, compassionate, thoughtful, and generous.

The Church does have a way of producing really good people, doesn’t it?

It does, but so do other religions and even non-religions. I know a very good young man who professes to be an atheist. It probably has more to do with parenting and genetic predisposition than religion.

Completely with you. In fact, it’s akin to how many of us here see the Church as “a way”, rather than “the way”. But it is “a way” and that is a good thing for those that find their way in it.

I really appreciate everybody’s thoughts. It helps a lot. I guess I feel like God put me in the church for a reason. Because perhaps He knew it would hurt like hell, and as much as I hate to say it, the things that hurt like that are usually really good for you. Not even Christ was able to learn without feeling pain, so we’re in good company.

I am working on letting go of the pain and guilt I have associated with the church for so long, but it will take time. When I say that, I don’t hate the church. OK – to be more honest, the bitterness still surfaces on occasion, but I am trying to get over that. I agree with what others have said about the negatives of the church not be intentional. As much as I criticize the church, I am quite certain I couldn’t create anything so good were I to try. My biggest problem is that an imperfect church demands unconditional and perfect obedience. That was fine until a bishop a while back smashed that perception of perfection. Not his fault – like me, he was imperfect.

So I guess for now, I’ll fly in the face of general conference recommendations and be a “buffet eater” at the table of the gospel. I simply cannot risk more damage to myself by letting them dictate my self-worth based on my willingness to do whatever they tell me to. But I pray for the many many members of the church whose self worth is destroyed by their inability to meet the eagle scout, returned missionary, temple marriage, lots of kids, bishop, stake president, missionary couple ideal that is out there.

That is true of every organization. Its not unique to religion.

Do you all think the church manipulates members by making them think the rules of the church are so important that they can’t be good people unless they follow all of them? Is tying up a person’s self worth in your approval of them the real force behind what makes members of the church do what they do?

I have often wondered myself if trying to live up to the standards of the church was a contributing factor to issues like depression and suicide. It startled me after i joined to learn how many women struggle with depression. I havent heard about men…but i know alot of women in my ward have it. Then i found out that several families in my ward each have like one son that committed suicide. That is terrible.

In my opinion there are so many things you have to be accountable for that is part of the reason why. Its hard to be “ideal”. I confided into my Bishop shortly after i joined that i felt really depressed. I couldnt understand why. I have always been a bubbly person. His response was that there must be something i need to improve on. Well, if you pick enough at something your bound to get a response….so it would either be that i wasnt reading my scriptures on a daily basis, or i didnt consistenly pray, or i wasnt a full tithe payer. He could always find a reason for my unhappiness. Everything centered around something i was failing at or not doing properly.

So yes, to some degree i believe the church is responsible for the mental health of many of its members…but not by purposely manipulating them. Its due to the culture.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. There church has a LOT of flaws. Or, perhaps it’s the people within the church. But I guess a knife cuts you the same way whether it’s a teenager or adult who holds onto it.

My issue is that a imperfect church (or at least a church run by imperfect people) – demands perfect obedience. I was fine with this, until all of a sudden I was slammed in the face with reality as a boy sick and unable to serve a mission.

However, when I read the New Testament Gospels – about the only thing I read any more – I do see that Christ DID have a church. He did talk about baptism. He did have apostles. He did institute the sacrament and have a temple. I realize that trying to balance holding onto your standards while accepting people as they are must be tremendously difficult to do for the church. I have actually recently tried attending service for several other religions – catholic, baptist, etc., – and it really gave me a good feeling about the mormon church.

For me, at least, the biggest problem with the church is how much the importance of obeying the rules is pounded into members. From the day you are born until the day you die, the church is number 1. There is no other way to God than the church. They place themselves squarely between a person and God, blocking the path. They might allow you to shout to talk to Him, but if you really want to get to God, the church has to be the one that holds your hand to get to them. There is a feeling that you can’t be really good unless you are in accordance with what the church tells you to do. I don’t know that the church means to be that way, but that’s the way it is.

Like Ray said, this is true with any organization. You’ll be ostracized on a soccer team if you never attend practice, or feel out of place on the PTA board if you only attend a meeting once every 6 months or whatever. But at least you’re not told you’ll be damned in your progression throughout all eternity if you disobey the church. I mean, those are some pretty toxic words.

I just wish that we would all accept others as they are – instead of trying to change them into molly mormon/peter priesthood ideal. I wish that all the people who suffer from the constant feeling of not being good enough in the church could come to a point where their self-worth isn’t entirely dictated on their status in the ward or strict obedience to the church. I don’t think it’s an error on God’s part that everyone isn’t a member of the church. I think God put me in the church for a reason – because it taught me things I wouldn’t learn anywhere else. Those things hurt like hell, but that’s life I suppose.

I guess I need to look on the church as I would try to look on a person – to take the good and leave the bad. As I’ve distanced myself from it, I’m finding it easier to let go of all the hurt and anger I had surrounding it. At least some of the hurt and anger now isn’t being directed back towards myself. It’s when that happens that I think depression and suicide results.