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April 25, 2014 at 6:40 pm #208743
Anonymous
GuestThis is a topic I have been fascinated with for a long time. I have read hundreds of near-death experiences from both LDS and non-LDS people, spanning time periods from the 1800’s to the present. Some of my most valuable spiritual experiences have been from reading these accounts. I have also talked to a few people personally who have had such experiences. To start, I want to state right up front that I believe near-death experiences, at least as we currently understand the brain and consciousness, do not provide any scientific proof of an afterlife. I have read the medical explanations of NDEs, so I am familiar with them. I am not sure we will ever have scientific proof of an afterlife, at least from collecting dreams (though perhaps we will one day, who knows). But I am aware of how the brain can create images of light, like some migraines do, or that the brain can be stimulated to make people see people they know or other things as though they were real. But I would like to see one example where the brain is forced to hallucinate that had a long-standing, life-changing impact on that individual.
Though I have read the medical explanations, I find them to be hollow and forced explanations in many cases. Granted, I believe many NDEs are hallucinations or dream-like states or stuff like that. I have also read the explanations of how NDEs are different between cultures, suggesting that they are fabrications of the mind, influenced by the person’s culture. In my mind, that is like multiple aliens visiting different countries on Earth, then returning home to report their own experiences of Earth, and the alien authorities concluding that Earth is fake because they each experienced a different thing, and assuming that any real account would be the same for each alien. To assume that each NDE should be the same is to ignore the complexity of reality. I am a therapist, and I can’t tell you how many times I have done couple’s therapy and listened to each person’s account of the same event. I never cease to be amazed how two people can describe the same event, yet both be completely factual and also sound like they are completely contradicting each other, as though they were talking about two different events. I have learned how powerful human perception is for creating unique experiences with similar events. We are all looking at the same scene in life, but from different places and with different glasses and with different beliefs and desires.
But my main point with this thread is not to prove NDEs are real. I just wanted to have more of a discussion about a subject that I am very interested in. Despite the variations described in NDEs, I have seen few things that actually contradict. I just see different perspectives or different parts experienced from an overall whole. If we all travel to Rome, we are going to report different things because of our personalities, the places we choose to visit, the type of people we are interested in, the type of food we like. But there are also going to be common threads that we all share in our stories.
I am always fascinated by the common threads in almost all NDEs. Here are some of those commonalities:
1) They are all certain that their experience is real…even more real than this life, so that this life feels like a dream in comparison. Even when ridiculed or questioned by others, they retain this certainty of their experience. People who dream and hallucinate think it is real, until they wake up or get sane. Then they sense that it was a fake experience (though in some cases of mental illness, they never come to disbelieve their hallucinations).
2) They usually describe abilities not had in this world, i.e. telepathic communication, super vision, speed of movement, seeing colors that don’t exist on our spectrum, instantaneous travel with just a thought. A few describe coming back with some psychic or empathic abilities (but these are more rare and less consistent).
3) Most of them, if their experience lasts long enough, report meeting with a being of light who bathes them in such absolute love and compassion that it overwhelms them and washes away every single fear, doubt, or bit of shame. Different people from different cultures often identify this being based on their own beliefs, i.e. some think it is Jesus, others Allah, others an angel, etc. But virtually every person who does meet this being of light describes how infinite the love is and how impossibly bright, yet not blinding, the light is coming from this personality.
4) Many of them develop the perspective that there are two main things in life that are most important: learning to love and gaining knowledge through experience.
5) Many of them explain that what they do in life (i.e. what mistakes they make, etc.) is less important than what they learn from these experiences. They also learn that their motives and true desires are more important than outward behaviors.
6) Probably one of the most compelling commonalities (and I believe this factor often separates the real NDEs from hallucinations or fabrications) is how life-changing one of these experiences is. I work with people who have had many hallucinations, and I have never seen one of them come out of a hallucination with a new purpose of life, more compassion and love, less concern for material and superficial things, etc. But people who have had NDEs do experience this change. They value their relationships above all else. They have a passion for life (or conversely, an intense sadness that they had to leave paradise to come back to this difficult world) they never had before. They often develop an intolerance for human suffering, violence, and dishonesty. They develop a strong desire to meet other people who have had NDEs, because they feel so alone in having such a miraculous, absolutely real experience that most people do not believe. They feel like others view them as crazy, even though they know they are not. They hunger to find someone who ‘gets it.’ In essence, real NDEs are usually life-changing experiences…not pie-in-the sky hallucinations based on memories and wishes and subconscious. And they are not just short-term life-changing experiences. These changes usually last throughout their lives. The changes endure. Imagined experiences simply don’t have this kind of soul-changing power.
7) They have an out-of-body experience and see their own body from a 3rd-person perspective. Those who describe how they leave their body and go back into it usually either say they don’t know how they did it, or that they went back in through the head.
The majority of them (if their experience lasts long enough for them to leave their body behind) experience an instantaneous, or near instant, life review. They report being able to comprehend their entire life in the same moment, as if time had no meaning. This is usually in the presence of the being of light, and they all unanimously report that there is no fear or judgment or condemnation from this being as they review their lives. They report that the being was simply showing them what they did and asking them to consider what they have learned. Some people report that the being asks them if they think their life, with all of its trials, was worth what they learned and experienced.9) Virtually every person comes back with no fear of death anymore. Usually, it is quite the opposite. They often long to return to death so they can return to the world of peace and love. Yet, despite this longing, they usually feel more committed to mortal life, because they now understand the importance of gaining knowledge and experience, and of learning to love and serve. In essence, they come back with more faith, because faith is to act on hope of something better, even when it is a sacrifice. Though they long to return to the spirit world, they do not become suicidal or seek death. Life, even mortal life, becomes even more precious to them.
10) Most of them return with a sense of purpose. They feel like they are here for a reason. Many of them report that they only came back because they saw that their family or other people still needed them, and that this was part of their mortal mission.
There are others, but these are all I can think of right now. Has anyone here had a near-death experience or known someone who has? What are your thoughts on these? Again, I don’t mean this to become a scientific debate, since I think it is pointless to try to prove or disprove NDEs in that way. But for myself, after all that I have read, I can’t bring myself to believe that all of these experiences are nothing more than biochemical factors taking place in a damaged or dying brain. For me personally, these experiences have too many commonalities, too much detail, and too much depth and meaning for the person who experienced it, to be the subconscious just acting up. But on a scientific basis, I do recognize the possibility that I am wrong and I am okay with that possibility. I recognize I may be forcing my paradigm onto these accounts and seeing something that isn’t there. But it doesn’t change my belief or what I choose to place faith in.
And one of the greatest gifts these experiences have given me, as I have read them over the years, is a different perspective on religion, God, and spirituality. I see so much of these NDEs as lining up with the gospel in its pure form, but I see how much the rigid, authoritarian, shame-based traits of mortal people causes these pure truths to be distorted in ways that confuse us and hurt us. More than anything else about NDEs, they have helped me to view God as perfectly compassionate and never fear-based or scary, as is usually portrayed in much of religion. I have come to view sin, not as something that hurts God or makes him reject us, but as nothing more than false beliefs that cause us to be blind to God, or as malicious intent toward others. He is always there, always reaching out, always present, always loving. I no longer believe anything we do ‘grieves the spirit’ so that it flees from us. God’s influence is everywhere and nothing has the power to make God leave us. But we can become blind to what is all around us. God wants nothing more than to help us see him. He is the loving parent who will not abandon us when we make mistakes, which is usually when we most need his love. I think it is very shame-based to assume that God abandons his support when we sin. From my own experience, I never hunger more to know that I am loved than when I make mistakes and feel terribly flawed.
These are my thoughts and feelings and beliefs. Thank you for letting me share something that has been very spiritual and supportive to me.
April 25, 2014 at 7:55 pm #284097Anonymous
GuestI have an interest in the subject as well, perpetrated by my wife who has had a long interest in them. I have read a few of the books and we plan to see the movie currently in theaters (Heaven Is Real). Like you, I tend to believe the people – just like I believe Joseph Smith saw what he says he saw. I have also noted commonalities in them, and you do a great job at spelling those out Thalmar – thanks for the effort and thanks for sharing. I have been led to wonder at times how these things fit with LDS teachings/doctrine about the afterlife. I do maintain that we know so little about the afterlife that it’s mostly not worth worrying about. There is some, mostly vague, scripture about it and much of the rest we “know” is teachings of men.I don’t see major contradictions to that which the LDS church teaches but I don’t see major support, either. Like you said, Thalmar, the descriptions I have read fit more with my view of God as the ultimate personification of love and mercy and forgiveness.
April 25, 2014 at 8:02 pm #284098Anonymous
GuestPlease do an archive search. There is at least one very good discussion about this topic from the past. April 28, 2014 at 6:10 am #284099Anonymous
GuestInteresting, thanks for the summary. April 28, 2014 at 10:22 am #284100Anonymous
GuestThe most compelling evidence in NDEs, IMHO, are out of body experiences.
Some people seem able to see things that they shouldn’t in a room or
outside it, from a different perspective, when they are officially
unconscious or have their eyes firmly shut.
By the way, not all people have PLEASANT NDEs. Some see Hell and the like,
not beings of light, but they too usually become better people as a
result. Flatliners was not inaccurate in that respect.
April 29, 2014 at 1:16 am #284101Anonymous
GuestI really enjoyed reading this. Very peaceful! May 7, 2014 at 2:04 pm #284102Anonymous
Guestthalmar wrote:This is a topic I have been fascinated with for a long time. I have read hundreds of near-death experiences from both LDS and non-LDS people, spanning time periods from the 1800’s to the present. Some of my most valuable spiritual experiences have been from reading these accounts. I have also talked to a few people personally who have had such experiences…
Has anyone here had a near-death experience or known someone who has? What are your thoughts on these?Again, I don’t mean this to become a scientific debate, since I think it is pointless to try to prove or disprove NDEs in that way. But for myself, after all that I have read, I can’t bring myself to believe that all of these experiences are nothing more than biochemical factors taking place in a damaged or dying brain.For me personally, these experiences have too many commonalities, too much detail, and too much depth and meaning for the person who experienced it, to be the subconscious just acting up. But on a scientific basis, I do recognize the possibility that I am wrong and I am okay with that possibility… I have known people that had near-death out-of-body experiences as well as experiences involving what appeared to be spirits (both good and bad) and precognition. For a long time I interpreted these experiences as direct confirmation that the Church was true almost exactly the way it claims mostly because I thought they were explained much better by LDS theology than by atheism which was the only other possibility that I really took seriously for many years. However, after I noticed many problems with the LDS doctrines and scriptures as well as the Bible if taken literally in addition to the fact that many non-Mormons have reported similar experiences as well without feeling like there was anything seriously wrong with their current religious beliefs I started to interpret these experiences from more of a universalist perspective where I basically think Mormons, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, skeptics, etc. can all be wrong in some ways but that doesn’t mean God is going to condemn them for false beliefs alone. It looks like trying to figure things out and deal with the unpredictable and challenging circumstances that exist in the world we see is just part of the experience of life but I don’t see any convincing reason why that couldn’t be by design.
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