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http://www.ldsliving.com/story/76857http://www.ldsliving.com/story/76857” class=”bbcode_url”> The article really appears to be a spot ad for
The Crucible of Doubtbut it makes some good points nonetheless. I particularly like how the article points out that doubt can strengthen faith (I personally believe there would be no need for faith were it not for doubt) and this paragraph: Quote:Terryl Givens credits cultural pressures within the Latter-Day Saint community for this lack of preparedness. “We have become accustomed to equating testimony with certainty and knowledge, and we use the language of certainty–I know the church is true, I know this, I know that–and it may be that in fact the silent majority as members of the congregation may very well feel unqualified or unable to affirm that they know the church to be true,” he said. “We are simply trying to add our voices to those of the brethren like Elder Holland, to the effect that we need to be more accommodating and embracing of those in our midst who feel that they want to express the desire to believe without being able to express the certainty.”
I wholeheartedly believe in that silent majority.
I agree – and I think it’s a larger majority than many people realize – and I think that is a good thing. Just as a case in point: I live in a small ward, we generally don’t have any baby blessings or confirmations to do on fast Sunday giving us about 45 minutes for testimonies. In that time we get maybe a dozen people up to bear testimony, some of who get up every time and there are the children with Mom whispering in their ears (more rare in our ward than some others). I would wager that half our congregation has never gotten up, at least not that I can recall and others rarely get up – perhaps once a year or less. Some of those who do get up never do the “I know this church is true” thing but do talk about faith promoting experiences.
Perhaps those who are silent are not the majority everywhere, but they are there, and they are why I often say that it’s just as interesting what people don’t say as what they do.
Great article to link, DJ. I like this part:
Quote:The boy’s father, rushing the child to the Savior and begging for any kind of help the Savior can give, despite not seeming convinced that he can give it, receives the following response:
“If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth” (Mark 9:23).
The father asserts that he does believe,
but the story doesn’t end there.“After looking in his eyes, Christ knows that he’s telling a whopper,” Fiona Givens says. “So immediately the man says, ‘Help thou mine unbelief.’ That is the sort of doubt we are talking about, where you are open to the fact that God will answer your questions, that he is invested in your life and your testimony and your faith journey, that he has invested everything in helping you return home, and so that type of doubt is much more productive than the doubt we see in the world that is only combined with cynicism and skepticism.” [emphasis added]
A few questions for the group:
What if you really want to know truth. And in doing so, feel like God is letting you see that some parts of church are folklore and not really as true as you thought? What if you even feel the church is not true, and doubts make you feel there is another path for you? That seems to be the danger people in church worry about when they say:
Quote:please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
-Pres Uchtdorf, Ensign, Oct 2013
They want to teach…”stay safely in the fold…don’t let doubts creep in” rather than “be brave and face your doubts, it will make you stronger”.
How do you distinguish between doubts that are constructive from doubts that could be destructive? Isn’t there risk in doubting?
Heber13 wrote:A few questions for the group:
What if you really want to know truth. And in doing so, feel like God is letting you see that some parts of church are folklore and not really as true as you thought? What if you even feel the church is not true, and doubts make you feel there is another path for you? That seems to be the danger people in church worry about when they say:
Quote:please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
-Pres Uchtdorf, Ensign, Oct 2013
They want to teach…”stay safely in the fold…don’t let doubts creep in” rather than “be brave and face your doubts, it will make you stronger”.
How do you distinguish between doubts that are constructive from doubts that could be destructive? Isn’t there risk in doubting?
I agree that people are afraid of doubt, in part because it is always seen as negative and in opposition to the church. I think Pres. Uchtdorf’s words about the church cultivating faith even in the sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty and the reference he makes to great oaks of understanding do address that – but in more of a parable form. I have been known to testify of late that I am not free from doubt, but that those doubts don’t hold me prisoner any more and that by returning to church I have gained great new understanding. While I don’t say from the pulpit that I feel comfortable with my doubts because Pres. Uchtdorf helped me realize it’s not an all or nothing proposition, I will say that in private. The realization that it’s not all or nothing, that it’s OK to question and doubt and still go to church and SS and priesthood, is why I am no longer prisoner and how I have gained new understanding.
There is a difference in doubts and questions that are opposed to the church and doubts and questions that are believing in nature. There is a risk in the first (destructive) kind, and the second more constructive kind – designed to build faith (in the long run) as opposed to destroy it. Admittedly in the midst of a crisis of faith there seems to sometimes be a fine line between the two. Perhaps it’s in the approach we take – and I’m thinking out loud here – perhaps it’s not that the doubts themselves that are either constructive or destructive, rather it’s how we approach them. Do we want help with our unbelief? Or do we want our unbelief to hold us prisoner from the love, peace and gifts of having faith in (and believing) Christ?
I agree with you that the message is “be brave and face your doubts, it will make you stronger.” I think the idea sometimes expressed by those in crisis that things are placed on a shelf (which eventually breaks) is the “don’t let doubts creep in approach” and leads to not being able to overcome the crisis.
Here is the crux of the issue for me: As noted in the article, the author makes the point that having doubt can lead us to our knees to ask for answers, but what if that activity doesn’t lead to anything? What if all we hear are crickets (which is usually what I hear)?
Asking has only made me doubt more because I haven’t receive any type of satisfying answer to anything. And looking back through my current lens at past “spiritual” experiences I can see how they were mostly driven by emotionalism, not anything having to do with a communication with God.
However, I have had moments that I feel connected to something, which is why I trend toward belief instead of un-belief. But those feelings of connectiveness don’t answer many of my glaring questions (i.e. Actual existence of God, Nature of God, Christ as a Savior, Joseph Smith, BOM, etc.).
So DJ, I like your analysis that it is more in our approach, and how we search for meaning. I choose to be an optimist (some probably due to personality and some due to choice), and I tend to agree with the Givens that belief is a choice. As I have thought a lot about this, I am content to not know. I think “knowing” would be a burden and perhaps God knows that about me and so He lets me wander through mortality as a Liahona and loves me anyway and hopes that I try to do good and that is enough (that is a nice thought to me and so that is what I will believe
🙂 ).SBR…I know exactlyhow you feel. Here is my thought…if I hear nothing (not even crickets
Many times, I feel the non-answers I’m getting can be interpreted as an answer in my mind, something like:
Quote:You’re doing alright, Heber13…keep doing what you’re doing. You’re smart enough to think for yourself. Whatever you choose to believe is OK with me, as long as you have Charity in your heart.
In other words, it seems to me, the Lord is OK with me having doubts. He may be watching to see what I’ll do while I have my doubts, rather than be told everything, or be given answers to everything.
Like the article stated:
Quote:“I think the greatest benefit that can be derived from an honest doubt is the recognition that in the final analysis, we choose to believe,” Terryl Givens asserts. “For somebody who has seen that there are reasons to doubt and reasons to believe, and yet make a free choice to affirm their belief, you can see that that is a wonderful position to be in, to recognize that this is something I chose, it’s not something I was compelled by the evidence to accept. It’s something that out of a free heart I choose to embrace. Now, I think that that’s an advantage known only to those who have passed through the crucible of doubt.”
Maybe the Lord isn’t going to give an answer, because He is waiting for you to choose what you believe.
Quote:I try to do good and that is enough (that is a nice thought to me and so that is what I will believe
🙂 ).Exactly how I feel. It is not just enough…it is what matters to me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Well put SBRed and Heber. We are birds of a feather. I think there are important connotation issues when we talk about words like “doubt”. For example, some people distinguish between an actively negative view (“doubt”) and a more neutral view (“uncertainty”), while others would define those two words as synonyms. So, when some people hear the word “doubt”, they think of someone who says, “I don’t believe that / I don’t think that is true,” while others think nothing more than someone saying, “I am not certain about that.”
The story of Doubting Thomas is a good example – since Thomas said he wouldn’t believe what he was being told unless he was able to see it with his own eyes. Outside of the fact that the story implies he deserved to see it with his own eyes, since that is what is recorded later, many people hear “doubt” and think it means having no faith (not believing something unless it can be seen) – while others others think merely of suspending both acceptance and denial until more can be understood. Thus, some people see doubt as inherently bad, while others see it as natural and good – kind of like “healthy skepticism”.
That’s why I try hard to use “uncertainty” when talking with most people about most things. It simply raises fewer connotative issues and causes fewer misunderstandings.
DarkJedi wrote:Well put SBRed and Heber. We are birds of a feather.
Ditto. I really appreciate these comments.Heber13 wrote:
A few questions for the group:What if you really want to know truth. And in doing so, feel like God is letting you see that some parts of church are folklore and not really as true as you thought? What if you even feel the church is not true, and doubts make you feel there is another path for you? That seems to be the danger people in church worry about when they say:
[How do you distinguish between doubts that are constructive from doubts that could be destructive? Isn’t there risk in doubting?
I really like your questions Heber as I have experienced this personally. Even as recently as a week ago when I got an email from a new bishop who is sincerely trying to get us back to church. When I prayed about it, God led me to listen to some Grant Palmer podcasts and his testimony. It confirmed that I was right in leaving the church and that God led me to the United Church of Christ that we attend now. My marriage, family, and life is so much happier and better since leaving the lds church. That is my testimony.
I’ve finally gotten around to reading this full thread, and I’m glad it’s here. Thanks for bringing it up and the following discussion. 
The whole primary incident that led to my FC was me wanting to know why people doubted. Through my research, I did come to realize that a lot of the church is folklore and myth. That was so difficult for me at first, because I used to be in the certainty camp, thus the FC. Just weeks before, I was on a road trip where everyone was an ex-Mormon but me, and indeed a couple times we did talk about religion, and it was interesting for me, to say the least. But now I believe the doubt and the FC was exactly what I needed and what God intended for me. I am in a much better spiritual place than I was before, because I’ve been able to define my own faith and beliefs, and thus make them much stronger.
There will always be risk in doubting. I could have very easily gone the opposite and left the church altogether rather than being a much better (in my mind) voice within what is mostly a very single-minded culture.The church runs the risk of losing a lot of members if it very openly encourages doubt, because there’s just so much about the church that can cause people to doubt. However, it also runs the risk in doing what it’s doing now, in trying to make people feel that any doubt at all and not being in the certainty camp is a sin, and then when they discover the doubt on their own, it’s much more difficult to process.
Looking back, I personally feel like God was preparing me for many, many years prior to my FC, and most of that preparation was from sources well outside the church. I do believe that the higher power knows what we need. For some people, that might be mostly silence. For others that’s a ton of smaller things that we then choose to see as a higher power. I like the thought presented that there are many definitions of doubt, and that not all of them are negative, because I definitely feel that way about it. I suppose it just depends on whether it leads to a negative or positive consequence for the doubter.
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