Home Page Forums General Discussion Interesting article on baptism rates

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 23 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #208751
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Found this in the Salt Lake Tribune today. The article compares the huge increase in the number/percentage of missionaries to the not so huge increase in baptisms. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57862203-78/missionaries-church-converts-lds.html.csp” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57862203-78/missionaries-church-converts-lds.html.csp

    It rings true. Our ward used to have only one set of missionaries and has always been so (since the inception of the branch in the 70s). Frankly this one set was not busy enough ad baptisms have always been few and far between. Now we have two sets with the ward divided in half between them, and we don’t have any more baptisms than we had before. Also, my son serving a mission in South America has been out six months – no baptisms and nobody even close right now.

    I don’t think the church needs to reexamine the age thing (well, maybe make it 18 for sisters, too), but I do think we may have reached a saturation point.

    #284176
    Anonymous
    Guest

    1) I worry that the numbers will cause a stir among the GAs and this will eventually translate into even more focus on HtW from the top down. As WML I can already start to feel the browbeating. :( Focusing on others besides myself… again I worry that all this focus on HtW is going to take away from the spirit of our regular meetings. I’m positive I’m projecting my feelings onto others but HtW is well beyond the saturation point. I’d hate to see a double-down on turning our meetings into what amounts to little more than motivating a sales force.

    2) We’re picking up a third companionship next transfer.

    3) The article mentions that the ratio of converts to missionaries has slipped from 5:1 to 3.5:1. My calling has already exposed me to that factoid and I’ve already heard the displeasure over it. I’ve heard “that is not HtW” multiple times and I don’t think that’s a healthy message to be sending.

    4)

    Quote:

    Stewart and Martinich say the number of members helping missionaries find potential converts has not kept pace with the influx of new proselytizers.

    “That is the key ingredient,” Martinich says, “to improving the efficiency and productivity of missionary work.”

    Unfortunately I think that line right there means that the members are about to get ground into hamburger meat. It’s the member’s fault, they aren’t doing enough. It doesn’t help that nearly every missionary I’ve met comes to the field with this attitude. I’m fairly certain I had that same attitude during my mission, so no stone casting. I agree that members are the key. Missionaries are transient. I’m just sad that I can already vicariously feel the guilt.

    The article mentions that in Los Angeles they are instruction missionaries not to track and asking that they only contact member referrals. I hope they aren’t holding idle missionaries over the heads of the members in that area.

    5) The article mentions that in a few areas they are experimenting with two hours of service per day. A good step in the right direction. I hope they trend toward more service. What better thing to do with tens of thousands of idle missionaries?

    #284177
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Switching gears… apparently the church is experiencing tremendous success (defined by convert to missionary ratio and retention) via the online efforts. I wonder how that will change the face of a mission.

    I believe the way it works is that people visit a site and live chat with missionaries with their questions about the church. I’m sure the program has a finite reach and it probably doesn’t take tens of thousands of missionaries to staff. If the work moves more in that direction I wonder how it will impact the length of a mission, the numbers needed, etc.

    I think the success is due to the fact that the teaching pool is 100% people that came to the church, not vice versa. I don’t think they are going to experience a whole lot of additional success by expanding their online presence into online tracting/spamming.

    P.S. They may eventually want people older than 18 on the other end of the keyboard, I’m sure they get tough questions. That or a special tailored training on common tough questions and how to respond. That serves the double purpose of knowing how to answer people and giving the budding missionary a foundation of dealing with the toughest issues all within the controlled setting of the MTC.

    #284178
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I don’t live in a “fertile” part of the world. People are very skeptical here, know little about Mormonism, and what they know is usually wrong.

    I live in a not insignificant city, yet we only have one ward. They’ve tried splitting it, and purely on the basis of population you’d think this would work.

    However, we seem to have at least one baptism per month on average. Sometimes two or three.

    Our REAL problem is retention, that and many people being foreigners, transients or Americans in the ward.

    ps I don’t think saturation has happened – Africa and Asia are still wide open. We’re getting a lot of Chinese converts right now, but activity in the PRC is banned.

    #284179
    Anonymous
    Guest

    SamBee wrote:


    ps I don’t think saturation has happened – Africa and Asia are still wide open. We’re getting a lot of Chinese converts right now, but activity in the PRC is banned.

    I agree we’re not saturated everywhere, SamBee – but I think we are here in the Americas. I think the problems with Africa and Asia (and the Indian Subcontinent) is the restrictions on numbers of missionaries we’re allowed to send to the various countries. This is even a problem in Europe to an extent. That’s partly why most of the new missionaries have been assigned to the Americas.

    #284180
    Anonymous
    Guest

    We are, however, in a bit of a bubble. We have more missionaries out right now than we will a year from right now, and that will be more than we have two years from right now. When the announcement of age changes was made 18 months ago, there were many young people that were suddenly eligible. So, YM who were planning to go at age 19, instead went a year earlier. We will permanently (and gratefully) have a much higher percentage of sister missionaries, but the floodgates opened and we had many go right away… so we had all those sister missionaries going out. The first-wave sisters will start coming home in in the next months (announcement+paperwork+call+time_before_MTC+18_months = now to July). Elders in that first wave will start coming home six months later.

    In the meantime, we will begin to stabilize on the true, sustained rate of missionaries entering the field. It’ll take two years to work through the ‘bubble’.

    #284181
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I

    would imagine Canada and the USA is fished out – still, people DO join

    in such places. But Brazil? Huge. Ditto Chile. Argentina. etc. Or the

    complex and isolated valleys of the Andes.

    Western Europe is well done, apart from remote areas such as the Faroe

    Islands and Iceland, wilds of Scandinavia. Ireland and Scotland are well

    covered in the cities, but not in their countryside or islands. There

    are low conversion rates in the Irish Republic thanks to the fact

    Ireland is part of a British set up. This is

    a running theme – the church as an urban not a rural feature.

    Don’t know about eastern Europe. Greece with its geography would be

    tough going. In countries like Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and

    the Baltics, you have one major capital city and much smaller centers

    outside that.

    I think Oceania is a mixed bag. The Maori have been well proselytized,

    but the Australian Aborigines haven’t. Samoa and Tonga fished out, but

    places like Micronesia? Papua New Guinea? White Aus and NZ fished out.

    I know there is a lot of hostility in Russia.

    Cuba I suspect will be opening up soon. And funnily I don’t think North

    Korea’s going to maintain its current system for many more decades.

    I think Africa will be the big growth area of this century, thanks

    partially to the racist ban being lifted.

    The Islamic world is a no go.

    India? Hard to read.

    Malaysia may have possibilities. Or Singapore.

    Messages? Develop better rural set ups. Don’t be an urban church. All missions must be run in conjunction with locals, not by Americans exclusively. Let locals draw ward boundaries not outsiders from a map.

    And most of all – DROP ALL THE CORRELATION and Americanization. It offends and is clunky. We should be an international church and reflect that.

    #284182
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Right now, the LDS Church pegs its global membership at 15 million.

    Here are some of the almanac’s findings:

    • About 30 percent of Mormons worldwide — or 4.5 million — regularly attend church meetings.

    • Between 2000 and 2010, LDS congregational growth was most rapid in Delaware (63 percent), Virginia (33 percent), North Carolina (32 percent), and Texas and Tennessee (29 percent). Congregational decline occurred in Louisiana (down 18 percent), Connecticut and New York (down 6 percent), and New Jersey (down 3 percent).

    • The Philippines is home to the largest population of Latter-day Saints outside the Americas — 675,166 as of 2012.

    • There are at least seven countries or dependencies with member activity rates of 15 percent or less — Chile, Portugal, South Korea, Panama, Hong Kong, Croatia and Palau.

    • Within the past three years, the lowest convert-retention rates have appeared to occur within Latin America, where many nations have experienced no noticeable increase in the number of active Mormons within this period.

    • Ivory Coast appears to have the most successful LDS missionary efforts within the past few years. Only French-speaking African members serve there due to safety and security concerns for non-Africans in this country. Explosive growth has occurred within the past two years. During 2013, the number of Mormon wards and branches, or congregations, jumped from 53 to 72; a 36 percent leap.

    • A big obstacle to LDS conversions can be the “ethnoreligious” ties that particular ethnic groups exhibit toward traditional faiths. Examples include ethnic Greeks with the Greek Orthodox Church, the Fulani people of West Africa with Islam, and ethnic Thais with Buddhism. Greece, for example, has seen little Mormon growth notwithstanding proselytizing missionaries serving in the country for more than two decades. There continue to be more active non-Greeks than ethnic Greeks in the LDS Church in Greece, and nominal membership remains under 1,000.

    • Tribalism has been a challenge in some areas of the world. In the South Pacific’s Vanuatu, the LDS Church must obtain permission from village chiefs to engage in missionary activity and hold services. Tribal conflicts have resulted, at times, in the church closing member groups and withdrawing missionaries.

    • The first full-time Mormon missionary from China completed his service in 2006. By the end of 2010, 42 missionaries from mainland China were serving full-time LDS missions, many in the United States and Canada.

    • In 2010, India had more than 150 Mormon missionaries. That number has been greatly reduced due to visa restrictions, but it is close to being self-sufficient with local missionaries.

    • In Spain, assimilating Latin Americans and Spaniards into the same congregations presents the most widespread ethnic integration issue. Some congregations with an overrepresented Latin American presence may run into difficulties baptizing and keeping active a Spaniard minority.

    • The LDS Church has cut the number of full-time missionaries assigned to Belgium to approximately a third of the levels reported in the 1980s and ’90s. Despite this reduction, Belgium remains reliant on foreign missionaries because few locals serve Mormon missions.

    • The United Arab Emirates boasts an LDS stake, four wards and two branches — partly because this Persian Gulf nation provides greater religious freedom for Christians than most Middle Eastern countries.

    • The LDS “Word of Wisdom” (a health code urging Mormons to eschew alcohol, tobacco, coffee and tea) and the “law of chastity” (forbidding sex outside marriage) perhaps present the greatest challenges to new converts and seasoned members.

    • In sub-Saharan Africa, there have been many instances in which individuals cannot get baptized in some countries because they participate in polygamous marriages per local customs and traditions. These individuals have to divorce polygamous spouses to become Mormons — apparently a rare move. The LDS Church stopped practicing plural marriage more than a century ago.

    • Countries with the most members and no LDS temple in place, under construction or announced: Nicaragua (80,605 members), Zimbabwe (23,117), Russia (21,709), Papua New Guinea (21,265) and Puerto Rico (21,174).

    http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/57369318-219/church-percent-lds-growth.html.csp” class=”bbcode_url”>http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/57369318-219/church-percent-lds-growth.html.csp

    #284183
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Am

    amazed there is no temple in Puerto Rico.

    Notable that the area with the biggest growth has non-Western

    missionaries. Very telling. The church doesn’t respect local customs

    enough – at least here it might be.

    Percentages would be interesting too. Some Pacific Island nations have

    high LDS percentages but low populations.

    Regarding Belgium – easily served by Dutch and French missionaries (and German minority). A small country, also no border controls with these neighbors.

    #284184
    Anonymous
    Guest

    There’s a temple in the Dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic temple is probably only 400 kilometers from the furthest point in Puerto Rico. Sure it means getting on a boat or plane but it’s not like Puerto Rico is completely stranded.

    #284185
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I just had a conversation about this very topic with with a fellow church member. My friend disclosed that they were told by the SP that conversion isnt the hot topic anymore, retention is. Missionaries are now encouraged to make sure they convert at least two people in every household. The thinking is that if the new member has at least one other person in their home that joins that they will have a better liklihood of staying active. Church leadership feel that too many converts lean on the missionaries and dont make the connection with the other ward members. Then when the missionaries move or go home…the converts stop coming to church because they dont have anyone to help them. This can also be seen in the new approach missionaries have of wanting investigators to read on their own to find answers to their questions or to discover truths in the scriptures. I found out about that many months ago.

    #284186
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Retention has been a concern for a very long time, and it is something often used by the antis who point out that there are far fewer than the 15 million reported members in church, and in some places it’s so bad that members don’t even identify as members in the census. That leads to the church saying there are x number of members in a certain country while the country says there are only y number.

    My son’s mission has some sort of new initiative starting where members are supposed to be more involved with the whole process, including actually teaching on splits with the missionaries and performing the baptism/confirmation. This initiative also includes the missionaries trying to get more member referrals, but I think that’s actually part of the problem – the potential converts aren’t found by the members to begin with so it’s only the missionaries who are invested. Really, if I had someone I knew who was interested in the church the missionaries would be the first to know – but I clearly don’t. His mission spends a great deal of effort on reactivation and reactivation counts the same as a baptism – in the mission newsletter they’re listed together without delineation. Part of this initiative is also less of an emphasis on stats – they don’t report number of lessons taught, etc.

    From a personal standpoint, my ward at the time did a great job at this fellowshipping stuff when I joined the church. I was in the military at the time, so the missionaries were not permitted to proselyte on base (I was golden). All of my lessons were taught at member homes or the church (mostly members, and mostly the same members). These people sat with me in church, and invited me over when the missionaries weren’t there. I actually recall a bishopric member asking me what I was interested in and what I would like to do before I was given my first calling (almost unheard of, but I don’t know why). This whole plan worked – I became very TBM and while I liked the missionaries (they did baptize/confirm), I had friends right there in the ward from the start.

    #284188
    Anonymous
    Guest

    wornoutsneakers wrote:

    Church leadership feel that too many converts lean on the missionaries and dont make the connection with the other ward members. Then when the missionaries move or go home…the converts stop coming to church because they dont have anyone to help them.

    This has been a concern since I’ve been a member of the church. Maybe this conversation took place here, but in case it didn’t:

    Another thing that was pointed out is that the missionaries visit their investigators multiple times per week. After all, they have the time to do it. Even if the missionaries didn’t move or go home they’d eventually have to move on to other people, the multiple visits per week that investigators and recent converts enjoy eventually dry up. Some people require multiple visits per week as motivation to attend church. It’s difficult for the general membership to sustain a level of visits that some people need. In many cases we baptize before there’s real conviction. The burden is then placed on the members to instill conviction.

    It’s a strange process to me. We won’t baptize someone with a very strong desire to be baptized because they smoke… yet we’re more than happy to rush people that aren’t really enthused at all to the waters of baptism.

    DarkJedi wrote:

    His mission spends a great deal of effort on reactivation and reactivation counts the same as a baptism – in the mission newsletter they’re listed together without delineation. Part of this initiative is also less of an emphasis on stats – they don’t report number of lessons taught, etc.

    Less of a focus on numbers is pretty cool. I wonder how the MP gets away with that when he makes his reports. Just curious… it’s fairly obvious how baptisms are counted, it is an event that takes place. Reactivation is nebulous. What counts as reactivation? For instance, say a less active family starts attending for a month in January, stops attending for 5 months, attends for a month again in July, stops attending again for 4 months, and attends for a month in December. Do they get counted 3 times on the year or only once?

    Because I don’t care for the focus on numbers. :crazy:

    #284189
    Anonymous
    Guest

    nibbler wrote:

    wornoutsneakers wrote:

    Church leadership feel that too many converts lean on the missionaries and dont make the connection with the other ward members. Then when the missionaries move or go home…the converts stop coming to church because they dont have anyone to help them.

    This has been a concern since I’ve been a member of the church. Maybe this conversation took place here, but in case it didn’t:

    Another thing that was pointed out is that the missionaries visit their investigators multiple times per week. After all, they have the time to do it. Even if the missionaries didn’t move or go home they’d eventually have to move on to other people, the multiple visits per week that investigators and recent converts enjoy eventually dry up. Some people require multiple visits per week as motivation to attend church. It’s difficult for the general membership to sustain a level of visits that some people need. In many cases we baptize before there’s real conviction. The burden is then placed on the members to instill conviction.

    It’s a strange process to me. We won’t baptize someone with a very strong desire to be baptized because they smoke… yet we’re more than happy to rush people that aren’t really enthused at all to the waters of baptism.

    DarkJedi wrote:

    His mission spends a great deal of effort on reactivation and reactivation counts the same as a baptism – in the mission newsletter they’re listed together without delineation. Part of this initiative is also less of an emphasis on stats – they don’t report number of lessons taught, etc.

    Less of a focus on numbers is pretty cool. I wonder how the MP gets away with that when he makes his reports. Just curious… it’s fairly obvious how baptisms are counted, it is an event that takes place. Reactivation is nebulous. What counts as reactivation? For instance, say a less active family starts attending for a month in January, stops attending for 5 months, attends for a month again in July, stops attending again for 4 months, and attends for a month in December. Do they get counted 3 times on the year or only once?

    Because I don’t care for the focus on numbers. :crazy:

    It’s quarterly results that get reported there.

    #284190
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’m with you there, Nibbler – one of the things I liked least about my mission was the focus on numbers and not people.

    I know the answers to your questions, I just didn’t put all the detail in the last post. It’s not unique to his mission, it actually came down from the area presidency and is supposedly a “pilot” program in some missions in that area. Reactivation is counted as the member/family regularly attending church and having a calling(s). There doesn’t seem to be a time requirement, but the information I get is from the mission newsletter and there is obviously more to it that is discussed in zone and district meetings (the newsletter says so). There is also a priority of focus involved, with the top priority being endowed elders and the lowest priority being “other less active members” – they being right below unendowed MP holders (read unendowed single sisters and/or single parents). I talked about that part before in another thread, how their focus is supposed to be on young males and families.

    FWIW, it’s also apparent his MP isn’t totally on board with the less stats thing – he still wants his missionaries to report total lessons taught (although not necessarily divided by investigators or inactives) and splits. The way it’s explained in the newsletter, the program itself only wants number of baptisms and number of reactivations. As a side note, my son has been out 6 months and has had none of either although they do have a family who has been coming to church for a few weeks but does not yet have callings. Usually in the weekly newsletter I see between 3 and 6 on the list of baptisms and reactivations. This particular week had 7, last week there were only 2.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 23 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.