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I promise this is not a negative post. Just an incredibly powerful post from T&S this week: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/05/understanding-anger-against-mormon-missionaries/ And of course, the same way that many parents of LDS converts feel betrayed or disconnected, likewise so do parents of the disaffected at times. It’s good to read this and understand how others feel.
Thanks for sharing. Great article. Wouldn’t it be great if in the next meeting of the 15, they read that article and had an open discussion on it? What kinds of solutions might they come up with? Or would they just dismiss it and carry on as usual? Yes, Sheldon, that would be great. I think the likelihood of that happening is near 0, though. If it did happen, there might be some discussion – I recognize there is diversity of opinion amongst the 15, but in the end I think they would conclude that hastening the work is more important. I don’t know why, but all of my life I have always felt uncomfortable bringing “friends” into the church. If a friend asked me about my religion, or said they were looking for a church – I didn’t mind sharing. But I never wanted my friends or co-workers to think our relationship required religion. I ended up having a couple of friends join the church when we were teens. (Not because of me directly) I always worried about their families. If we were all going to understand it in heaven, why not wait, during the millennium we could fix it. I mean that’s what those 1000 years are for – on going temple work. In short – I’ve never been a good missionary. I’ve never hastened the work. Again I don’t hide my religion, if you ask I will answer and explain, but I don’t proselyte. Just not me.
hawkgrrrl, Well, thanks for posting it, because it is an interesting read, but I must confess that I disagree with the article. I realize that people see things in different ways, but I have a strong sense of self efficacy. The Church, the bishop, the missionaries. Nobody makes me do what I do. I choose how to live my life and then I live it. This article seems to operate from a position that missionaries baptize by force of will, and in so doing, they are responsible for family strife.
Since you yourself have been a missionary, don’t you think that’s a little over the top? I mean, here’s a quote from the article:
Quote:The irony is that a Mormon mother sends out her missionary son as a way to strengthen his commitment to the faith, even if it means breaking the hearts of other mothers in distant places.
I don’t know about others, but I think that statement has absolutely zero connection with my own experiences as a missionary. Sure, we had people who had friends or relatives who didn’t understand or accept, but I never once taught any minor against the wishes of their parents. I can guarantee you that my mother would have been appalled if I had.And once we are adults, we get to go our own way in life. In fact, I believe that people here at StayLDS have a stronger sense of that than most.
Honestly, I feel like this article is totally backwards, and the only reason it appeals to people here is because of our dis-faith in the Church. But the reality is that this article is defending something that we find abhorrent in our own Church culture. This article decries the Church trampling the “rights” of people to keep their culture as-is without challenge from the outside. But we, here, consistently line up on the other side of the argument; challenging the old ways of the Church (like how people in our own Church want to keep gender roles in the status quo… keep same sex marriage at bay… and focus on things like white shirts and modesty standards). It’s the 21st Century. Keeping people in ‘our’ family safe from outside influences is not only not practical, but it is counter-progressive.
I think a much more interesting approach to the article would be to lament that some people can harbor such contempt for the choices their family members make; how they can use intimidation and the threat of separation as a hammer to keep family members in line.
As one who has sat outside the temple while a child is being married in a ceremony I can’t attend, I can only say that I’m grateful to have such wonderful people in my family, and I would rather have them live true to their beliefs than to compromise their beliefs to satisfy mine.
Well, I can assure you we do teach children under the age of 18 without the parents consent and indeed expressly against the parents consent. I have witnessed several times and meant dozens of others who are converts under such circumstances. And indeed it is/was part of their testimony when they bear it. I was with the missionaries during several of them. Meeting in a place at night while the investigator made up where they were going to meet with them and I present to share my testimony while missionaries, bishop and SP had knowing knowledge of the parents stern disapproval. But to share the gospel and salvation was considered more important, with or without the parents consent.
I can tell you the family strife that caused even decades after with the convert later not so sure.
It’s no different then the converts baptized in Russian lakes at night(some of my friends) while it was still illegal to even have a bible in public, let alone postalize. The personal stories of family strife afterword led more then a few to reconsider what is was really worth to them just as stayldsers do here on this forum.
Here is a video my Jewish rabbi friends sent to me on their point of view with missionaries and Jewish families.
In short it amounts what to them is asking for adultery from them. To leave their spouse and all of their peers.
A personal disagree but this is their genuine point of view and causes a ton of strife not just within the family but in the entire community as they act like the larger family.
[url]http://youtu.be/EvpD3FFa_0Y
[/url] It’s a difficult thing. But one thing is for sure. A person can’t delegitimize or marginalized or rationalize that their experience and point of view don’t matter or are in any way less then another’s.
People do make hasty decisions during teaching discussions with the missionaries and are encouraged to do so.
Most have no idea what they are really giving up at the time and what they are really getting into at the time.
Many just know that it felt good at that moment. And for that, their is longer term severe consequence they really don’t want or aren’t ready to make which manifest itself in the months and years to come. Not unlike a faith crisis here. Indeed from their point of view it is very much a long term faith, culture and family crisis downing years or decades.
It isn’t inductive of all people. But a good portion of people that are firmly in their faith and culture as one with their families. I’ve seen it with some Mormons going from Mormon to Judaism too. The difference is that they choose to do it of river own will and were actually discouraged to do it from the rabbi because they acknowledge and told them of what some consequences might be by doing so, that it would be very hard.
We do not bring reality into the picture at investigators of such families because we don’t acknowledge that it exist in the first place during the discussions. No cooling off period to go and think about it and talk about it with family.
Just encouragement of a one sides reality that it’s the right thing do, consequences be dammed. Just do it.
It’s acknowledging the reality and teaching it seriously with a cooling off period, so rash decisions aren’t made in the heat of the moment(which includes the entire teaching time without cooling off from missionary influence).
This happened with my ex-fiancé who I baptized but had no idea(or she) at the time what she was be really asked to do or give up. I watched for years afterword how it played out in her family, friends and herself. It’s a mistake I’ll never make again. I can’t see how anything in the works is worth what played out as does she now feel, but only after it played out.
We talk of “stayingLDS” on this forum for the spouse and family involved(among others).
They are arguing the same, even if they don’t believe everything in their faith to stay for their families in their faiths.any feel(after the fact) they wish that was the decision they made. Since we lobby for that here, I encourage them to lobby for that in their faiths.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:In short it amounts what to them is asking for adultery from them. To leave their spouse and all of their peers.
Yes, that’s my point. In some countries leaving Islam will get you executed, too. That kind of thinking is madness in the 21st Century. I can’t believe that people at StayLDS, of all places, would support that type of behavior. Each person has to be able to find their own form of spiritual expression. If that is Judaism, fine. If that is unorthodox LDS, fine. If that is Atheism, fine. If that is Mormonism, fine. If that is Hinduism, fine.As far as missionaries teaching minors without parent’s consent…. does it happen? I’m sure it does, has, and will. I know a lot of people who have done illegal things. I got cutoff on the way to work today by a reckless driver. I know an ex-cop who’s serving a life sentence. I’m pretty sure that the Church has a specific policy about needing parental permission to baptize minors. Somebody show me otherwise, and we can have this conversation.
And on the broader topic of respecting the beliefs/customs of others, there is this from the LDS Missionary Handbook:
Quote:Respect the culture, customs, traditions, religious beliefs and practices, and sacred sites in the area where you serve. Do not proselyte at or near the houses of worship of other faiths.
The Church emphatically forbids teaching and baptizing minors against the will of their parents.The missionary handbook is crystal clear about that. Rogue missionaries surely break that rule, but FAR more minors have wanted to be taught and/or baptized but had to wait until they turned 18 than have been baptized prior to 18 without parental consent. Seriously, it’s not close. I think there are valid points in the post, but I tend to agree with On Own Now – and I only will add that there is absolutely no way around broken hearts when religious conversion or alteration occurs, whether it be leaving a church or simply the nature of faith changing. Change hurts, and change of something that is important to someone else hurts especially. There simply is no way around that.
Ultimately, I go back to the words attributed to Jesus about setting family members against each other. I don’t think it is indicative of any divine desire; I think it’s a recognition of the inevitable.
Having said all of that, I believe strongly that we can do WAY more to try to make the transition as painless as possible, even if that sometimes is completely fruitless, than we do currently – just as I believe we can do WAY more to engage non-member spouses and parents in the church life of their family members, without actually engaging them in church activity. That, however, is a subject for another post.
In content, it’s not what(about others treat or consider a convert). It’s about how the convert feels inside after converting(weather soon after or some months or a few years). That they themselves feel inside that they were asked to and performed adultery. Which is how some people feel when they marry a spouse and have to leave behind them because their spouse and their culture were who they are. Often they don’t think about that when converting until one by one they are asked to do or not to do things that are truest who they are inside. Because of the conceit of line upon line. They knew little about what they would be asked to do latter, and when asked at one moment it became one important thing to many to give up where they soon didn’t recognize themselves or who they were anymore and stopped attending. But ultimately where left with desperation and choir jesses for years as they no longer where accepted in the tribe they left or the LDS tribe. Like a mixed race child in the 50s (and even today) they were no longer accepted by either. In hind sight most agree if they were presented with all they had to change or give up in the first place they would have never joined. They want everything laid out in front so they can make a informed decision. But they didn’t get that, they got line upon line until it was too much and they didn’t feel happy anymore.
It’s the difference between when I teach the gospel to friends and when the missionaries do.
They know they will get the full no holds barred honest approach. If three is anything that would potentially conflict Witt their personalities or culture faith that is strongly them, they get it all up front and get to make a fully informed choice.
Full discloser, like buying a car or house. Logic is, that if a person isn’t exposed to exactly what they are buying or participating in contract, then that contract becomes null and void at the sole discretion of the person who had wasn’t given crucial information to make the decision they wouldn’t have made with it.
That’s the importance of conversion, to acknowledge the contract is only valid if in full discloser.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:choir jesses
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Old-Timer wrote:I only will add that there is absolutely no way around broken hearts when religious conversion or alteration occurs, whether it be leaving a church or simply the nature of faith changing. Change hurts, and change of something that is important to someone else hurts especially. There simply is no way around that.
Yes. In fact, I’ve seen a lot of people on these forums (myself included) that have been paralyzed by not wanting to break the hearts of their loved ones due to loss of faith. There was a thread in September that resulted in this post:On Own Now wrote:MissEyre wrote:Telling my family about any of this would break their hearts, so for now I get to press on.
I encourage you not to put your family’s happiness on your shoulders. I had that same feeling years ago and it led to an impossible maze (and then to depression). I understand what you are saying, believe me. But think of it a little differently, and you might find it more workable.It is likely true that if you said to your family, “I don’t believe the church is true and it is bad and people in it are going to hell”, then, yeah, that would probably hurt them.
If instead you say something like, “I find that my faith is changing. I still believe in God and in doing good. I am still the same person you raised. I don’t agree with everything the Church teaches anymore, and I’m finding my own way now, but I do support you in the Church and I do believe there is good in the Church.” Then what you might find is more akin to surprise than hurt.
On Own Now wrote:Forgotten_Charity wrote:choir jesses
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Ya sorry, believe it or not, that is how badly confusion got corrected to by the program lol.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:On Own Now wrote:Forgotten_Charity wrote:choir jesses
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Ya sorry, believe it or not, that is how badly confusion got corrected to by the program lol.
Haha… how ironic
So, what program do you use? I’ve often wondered if you are texting your posts, put it would take me two hours to text that much material.
Yes I am, using the web on my phone. It gets confusing as I try to type so it doesn’t take an hour, more like 10 minutes. The results are funny at times when I go back to read it lol. I imagine it what it must look like it to read it. It’s funny afterward but I am sorry for the rushed autocorrected text on the phone.
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