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I admit that I became active in the Church again so I could date a woman who wouldn’t date me because I wasn’t going to church. We dated for six weeks, and she dumped me a few days ago and said she was never attracted to me, even though I thought that she liked me based on the way she acted. I’m devastated because I was kind of obsessed with her (which she picked up on because she’s very perceptive) and I’m very angry at myself for some things I could have done (starting about a year go) to prepare myself for meeting her, but didn’t do. I’m also extremely frustrated because it’s the same story I’ve encountered many times: a woman thinks I’m a great guy and fun to be around, but doesn’t feel romantically attracted to me. I’ve been trying to improve my attractiveness for a long time, and I’m not getting the success I want. But that’s not what this post is about. I guess now I can take a more honest look at my beliefs. As I’ve been going to church these last few months, she’s always been in the back of my mind as the carrot that I’ve been dangling in front of me for why I go to church. Now I have a chance to re-evalute whether or not I really like participating in the church for its own sake and not because an attractive and fascinating math-savvy woman might date me if I went to church. And she did date me, but she dumped me; but not (as far as I know) for things having to do with the Church.
I guess I’m not looking for advice on whether or not to stay in the Church. I’m looking for a methodology to make the decision for myself. I need to make this decision, but I don’t know
howto make it, and I feel like I don’t have enough information to make the decision. I went to church only once in 2013, so I was inactive for about a year. But my lifestyle was still mostly an LDS lifestyle, and I’ve never really been comfortable with the “typical” non-LDS lifestyle.
Another problem for me is that I’m over 31, so I can’t go to singles wards. I look young and can go to church activities and Sunday meetings if I want, but my records can’t be in a singles ward. I live in Salt Lake City now and attend a family ward (I have a good ward and a good bishop), but I’m planning to start graduate school in physics at the University of California at Irvine in the fall, which has a very small LDS population. Meeting LDS women in Southern California will be hard because they’re very spread out. But I still want a nice Mormon woman for a wife, and I haven’t been too interested in any of the non-LDS women I’ve met in Salt Lake, though I admit that I haven’t met very many. And trying to date non-LDS women means that I’ll have to learn an entirely new dating culture and an entirely new set of expectations, and I don’t want to do that if I don’t have to.
When I sit in church I have mixed feelings. I’m not angry and I don’t feel any dissonance when I sit in church. It’s more like going to learn about Greek mythology for three hours: it’s kinda fun to listen to and learn about, but I don’t really believe any of it literally. The hardest part for me is actually anything to do with God. The scripture stories can be fun, especially when there is mysterious supernatural intervention or when the characters learn some important lessons. I sing the hymns loud and proud. But when people start talking about “God did this for me” and “God would never do that” I kind of block it out because….I still don’t really believe in God. And I guess that’s the hardest part of staying LDS for me: I feel like it’d be a lot easier to make it work if I believed in God, but if I just don’t believe in God, the whole thing becomes pretty tough to work with. I guess I could find something that I could
call“God” like the laws of physics, but it still feels inauthentic for me to be able to use the generally accepted definitions of words in every area of my life except religion. It works for some people to believe that belief in God is a choice; I don’t know if this will work for me because I want a God who takes action rather than being hands-off. My perspective in church meetings is somewhat like that of a sociologist studying an exotic culture: I observe the rituals and beliefs and am fascinated by them, and even enjoy participating, but I believe none of them for myself. When I went back to the temple for the first time since my faith crisis (and reawakening), it was the best experience I’ve ever had in the temple. I felt that I learned some good life lessons and it was very refreshing (and I’d even say spiritual.) But since then, I don’t feel that I’ve learned as much when I go to the temple. I like the stories and the philosophies about life, and I love the painted rooms in the Salt Lake Temple. And I like being in sacred space. But I don’t really care for the covenants because I don’t think that any of them are actually binding. And I don’t really care for the parts that are obviously taken from Freemasonry. For me, the endowment session starts out fun, interesting, beautiful, and rich with story, metaphor, and beautifully painted rooms; and then it grows duller as the session becomes more covenant-based and masonic-based. And for some of the covenants, like consecration, I say “yes” as part of the ceremony, but in my mind I’m thinking “There won’t ever be a time where I will commit to giving everything I will ever have in the future to the Church.” The veil ceremony is kinda cool and the entrance into the Celestial Room – symbolizing a new plane of existence – is fun. It’s fun to see myself as part of a grand master plan that is symbolized by a religious ceremony (the endowment) in beautiful sacred space. But for me, it’s ultimately all metaphorical (and has some good lessons for life), but it doesn’t represent anything that is literally real.
So I’m looking for ways to make the decision for myself. What should I do? Explore other spiritual traditions by going other churches etc.? Date a few non-LDS women to see if I like it? I’ve already tried not going to Church for a year.
What would you recommend as a process for making a decision?
Tough question, IM, because the only one who can decide what’s right for you is you. Honestly I don’t see how any Abrahamic religion is going to be any different for you – it’s all the same monotheistic God. Universalism? Maybe. Hinduism? There’s still gods, but they are different. Buddhism? You can be Buddhist and any other religion at the same time, essentially (and that’s not a bad thing). In the end you’ll need to decide where you’re most comfortable – and I bet that’s going to end up being in the LDS church. Seriously, I know it’s not for everyone, but I read what you write. Is it only LDS women that find you less attractive? How is dating non-LDS women going to help if that’s not the case? Maybe their standards are too high – and maybe yours are (no offense intended). I sincerely hope you find the peace you seek. I could always introduce you to my daughter….
DarkJedi, I was thinking that perhaps some kind of humanism, new age spiritualism, or Eastern religion blend combined with the philosophies of men, might be an adequate replacement. I went to a Unitarian church here in SLC and it seemed kind of silly because it was basically an academic/political lecture with a saxophonist and pianist. Being an atheist was empty and boring after awhile, and the post-Mormon community wasn’t too impressive and it wasn’t too useful for me socially (it’s mostly married men who complain about how their wife can’t see how wrong the Church is.) After awhile, the atheist rhetoric about all the reasons why God doesn’t exist becomes tiresome and boring, and even if you accept the arguments, there’s no reason to keep rehashing them. OK fine, let’s suppose for a moment that the atheists win, and there is no personal God and no afterlife. Now what do we do? People in atheistic countries (i.e. Sweden) have found ways to make meaningful lives for themselves. So there are ways.
But I’d be missing something if I went back to being a non-religious atheist. I feel like I’m done with that. I’d like something to fill that hole. Maybe it’s the Church and maybe it’s not; I’m not sure yet.
We say this a lot, but build your own faith within the general framework of LDS theology, especially since we say, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God”. Figure out what you believe has been revealed (no matter the source), what is being revealed (no matter the source) and, on a continuing revelation basis, what yet will be revealed. In other words, do what you postulated at the end of your post. As to the temple, stop going to “learn”. Instead, start going to feel and think and ponder and experience and meditate. When you know what’s happening, your body can perform the actions while your mind and spirit wander the universe, so to speak. You don’t have to pay attention to the presentation; let go and just see what hits your mind and heart each time you go – even if it is related to a Buddhist concept you’ve been considering or a mystic text you read recently.
Amen to what Ray said. I’d actually really recommend you go to other churches. Not in a “up yours” kind of feeling in regards to the church, but because at least for me, it really helped me decide if the church was right for me. After attending several other services, I found I feel most at home in the mormon church. It also helped me gain a bit more balance. In saying this, I completely respect that for other people, the answer isn’t always the mormon church. I don’t feel a person can’t be happy, good, or a perfectly acceptable person without being an active member of the church. On the dating scene, I would only say that severing a bad relationship early is far better than having to sever a bad marriage later. Certainly not being the Justin Beiber of the ward provides one level of protection against problems later on, so it may be a blessing in disguise. To not really believe in God would be the hardest. I can only say that God doesn’t stop involving Himself in the lives of those who don’t believe in Him. If you keep your eyes peeled, you can bet you’ll see Him clear as day pretty soon.
Hopefully things improve for you.
I got the impression you are physically active. If so, you might be interested in hiking, backpacking, river running, etc. with the Wasatch Mountain Club. When I lived there, I spent many a year meeting a lot of great people. Few of them were LDS, but they were intelligent, motivated, active people of various religions. And they have several hundred members in SLC. In california, you might find something similar with a local chapter of the Sierra Club. Sometimes there’s no better substitute than trying things out. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This will be real hard to quantify this on one post. Basically I am more of a non atheist humanist Mormon. As such I have known a tin of places that emphasize all the best of the church with few of the baggage or dogma.
Intellectually you might try one of them, I’m not totally familiar with them but there are Mormon humanistic and trans human places you can go to. Maybe something like this
http://www.mormonscholars.net/abouthttp://www.mormonscholars.net/about” class=”bbcode_url”> Or another. Not that it doesn’t require you to join as a denomination, not sure about the others.
As far as decision making process I have one I use quite a lot they has never failed me to have a regret.
It’s something like what are the known variables. Question everything, even the stuff you have proven to be true, does subsequent testing reveal that it’s still true and are applicable to the current situation?
When the testing are the problem is presented does it yells truth and or goodness?
If yes, how much? If no how negative? Does it befit mankind in the here and now or earthly future versus chasing a carot on a stick for perceived security? How much sacrifice is being asked to be made and what does it accomplish here in earth or is it all focused on perceived security in some unknown future.
Life is full of Insecurity and constant change. The whole universe is forever showing this. Anyone promises leading to or promising. Security for unknown future an exchange for X isn’t abiding the universal law of change and therefore security.
Life is insecure, instead of running from it learn to embrace it instead of running to perceived security.
Take all this into account and continually test even tested answered in a heathy way as time and interest allow.
Regarding Southern California and dating, I know this well. I actively dated since jr high almost every weekend till a few years before I was married. Lots of different type if people. It’s very different from salt lake Provo area in which I lived for 3 years. The culture shock/difference is huge. Like another country huge. The LDS culture is far spread out, but that is a good thing for you as your neighbors won’t we breathing down or gossiping about your beliefs and or life.’ But the actual Mormon culture when gathered together was and still is in the places I visit a very high demanding Bruce R mcConkie ideal human reverence. I imagine there might be other cultures but never encountered any.
There are a ton of things do if you know what you are looking for and where to find it,
Basically you ca involve yourself in something new everyday for the rest of your life if you feel so inclined.
Dating, I dated a lot since I was in jr high onward seeking a kindred connection. Yes there are the type of party girls/whatever they exist that can’t be related to by Mormons. But I also found myself in many dates before getting married to non Mormons that I didn’t have to explain my values to, they understood or had similar values even if they were no religious/different religion. So they are out there. As far as Mormon women dating in so intern California. Not to many, couldn’t relate to too many at the most basic level and being the oddball Mormon. I didn’t fit in with the Bruce r McConnell image I was expected to have so I dated outside. That being said, depending on where you go in Southern California you will find a ton of different cultures depending on the exact city and area influenced by the my rid of cultures and culture fusion in the area. If a certain area isn’t to your liking it standards you can look at another area of Southern California.
If I am not mistaken, the Mormon girl blog, Joanna Brooks is from that area or used to be as well. So you might see if she has any suggestions as a unorthodox Mormon in that area.
http://askmormongirl.comhttp://askmormongirl.com” class=”bbcode_url”> InquiringMind wrote:…I guess now I can take a more honest look at my beliefs. As I’ve been going to church these last few months, she’s always been in the back of my mind as the carrot that I’ve been dangling in front of me for why I go to church.
Now I have a chance to re-evalute whether or not I really like participating in the church for its own sake and not because an attractive and fascinating math-savvy woman might date me if I went to church.And she did date me, but she dumped me; but not (as far as I know) for things having to do with the Church…I guess I’m not looking for advice on whether or not to stay in the Church. I’m looking for a methodology to make the decision for myself. I need to make this decision, but I don’t know howto make it, and I feel like I don’t have enough information to make the decision…I went to church only once in 2013, so I was inactive for about a year. But my lifestyle was still mostly an LDS lifestyle, and I’ve never really been comfortable with the “typical” non-LDS lifestyle…Another problem for me is that I’m over 31, so I can’t go to singles wards. So I’m looking for ways to make the decision for myself. What should I do? Explore other spiritual traditions by going other churches etc.? Date a few non-LDS women to see if I like it? I’ve already tried not going to Church for a year…What would you recommend as a process for making a decision? Personally I wouldn’t worry too much about making a final decision regarding the Church, if you don’t have a calling or temple recommend you could already basically come and go as you please so there is no need to reject it permanently if you aren’t sure you want to. I would definitely consider dating some non-LDS women; they’re not really as different from LDS women as many have been led to believe and some of the most common differences do not favor LDS women in your case because many of them have basically been indoctrinated for years to not be very tolerant and understanding about differences in belief from the traditional LDS teachings. Also, if you think about it the number of non-LDS in California is about 50 to 1 and there is the question of how many close to your age are actually available and looking for a relationship and how many are already married or in a long-term relationship. The average marriage age for women in the US is about 27 now for women but for active LDS women it would be several years younger than that so that would reduce the dating pool even more if you only date active LDS women.
I have a calling and a temple recommend. So I attend, but I can go check out other religious ideologies. What if I asked this question: Does the Church make me happy? Or will being part of another organization make me happier?
IM, I’m glad that you are taking this decision to go to church or not seriously, but I have a comment that no one has touched on that I think is very very important. What about what the girl ( your future wife) thinks about you going to church or your spiritual beliefs in general? You admit that you went to church for a girl before. Did she know about your beliefs? Probably not, as you mention that it is hard for you to find someone to date. I say this having had the same experience and marrying late too, so please don’t think I’m trying to be mean here. Dating is so brutal, and I’m so glad those days are behind me. Despite whether you stay or go, you need to be honest with the girls that you date with your spiritual beliefs. It may be hard, and you may feel that you are limiting your prospects by doing this. but if you are not honest with an LDS girl before you marry her, you are going to be in a world of hurt for both of you. What if she is a TBM? That is going to cause a lot of struggle in your marriage. Just read around here a bit, and you’ll see how hard it is. People make it work, and most of the time here, it happens as one member of the marriage changes after the marriage. You are talking about creating one of those situations on purpose. If you just go to church together and you don’t tell her your beliefs, she will feel lied to and will not understand. If you discuss your beliefs ahead of time, she might break up with you, or you will have an ally, which is going to be so much better. Inside or outside of the church, this is important. I agree too that there are many amazing women outside of the church for you to choose from with similar values. California is going to be a much better place to find them too. Inside is going to be harder,as you are going to have to find a non-traditional Mormon like one of us. I agree with what hippo says. My faith crisis came along when I was in a very similar life stage as you. I was 22 and going to college. I didn’t get married until I was 26. I had told my wife (girlfriend, at the time) about some of my faith issues, and she married me even though it wasn’t in the temple. But we still had problems later on, since she didn’t know the full extent of my issues (to be fair, I didn’t really understand myself very well, either). But I think one reason our marriage is so good right now is that she knew at least something of my issues so she didn’t come into the marriage completely blind. Your marriage will suffer if your spouse doesn’t understand where you really are with your faith. Daeruin, how did you mention your faith issues to her? How did you drop it in a conversation? I guess I should ask, what’s the best way to talk about your faith issues with someone you’re seriously dating?
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