Manna, Milk and Honey

Now this is where my agony is, were the people who followed Moses able to think for themselves or after years of slavery were they too dependent on someone else providing for them .ie unable, unwilling to think and act for themselves but as long as they followed directions, they were given what they needed to live. And that’s all. We know they got tired of the same thing every day even though it was life sustaining and they didn’t have to work for it. I may be a little off in my understanding of the period but my point is how close are we to that type of order? I guess I feel very close or I wouldn’t ask. I feel my ambitions are discouraged if they in any way conflict with church expectations which pretty common.

Of course, service is a great thing. But I liked what I read in the David O. McKay biography – that he was attempting to shift the rhetoric from “Let them obey,” to “Let them grow.”

Kipper, I appreciate your struggle with this. I have seen similar post from you in the past.

At the end of the day a few things need to be established with authority figures in your/our/ peoples lives.

Set boundaries, no one has the right to break them. Authority figures are just there to help us. If they are insisting or guilt tripping then they have overstepped there bounds. You can’t set boundaries unless you polity call them on overstepping there bounds that you have set. Your life is what you want to make it. It’s not up to others to decide what life means or is to you. Establishing that the authority figures in your life have no control over you but are there to help if you ask for it. If that isn’t true then boundaries need to be set and you have to set them with what is healthy for you. Never expect/wish or assume it will take place unless you yourself set them yourself. Wishful thinking won’t help you establish a healthy life interaction with people. No one is there to exhort control over you because basically, no one has that right no matter hat their title. It’s only when you believe that that isn’t true that emotional trauma will set in as you internalize that unhealthy thinking. Establishing healthy relationships with authority in your life is a challenge if you have no existence in doing so.

But it needs to take place. Practice and patience and courtesy without allowing others to overstep their bounds. Wish you the best but you need to try and exhort yourself if you want healthy change to happen.

I understand the plight kipper. Not your particular experience but that experience from my own experience and watching others. It’s what led me to champion against indoctrination through teachings and education, so others know if and when it is being used and how to counteract it if they don’t chose it. Before I could progress to a healthy standing in the church or family I had to first undergo a few specialist to un-indoctrinate and to reestablish independently. What I found was that though I love to serve others, obedience is often quite useless as a motivator for me. I do not know if it is for you.

Obedience for the sake of obedience without questioning and asking ourselves if it’s online with our goals as well and morals is probably one of the worst inventions in human history. What really is worth teaching is Co-operation. As a positive trait it is a order of a magnitude greater and healthier. So I rewrite or rearrange talks and and communication to me personally with that in mind. If they insist on obedience then really they insist on wanting no help. It takes 2 people working together, doing the best that they can each acknowledging each other’s needs. If it’s not happening like that then it is unholy ruling. Progression can only be achieved through Co-operation not through obedience. With that on mind it may help you or not to look at it in that light. And approach the relationship in that level. Sacrificing of self is occasionally required to accomplish things but only if it stems from the inside out and bot because it is suggested or asked from the outside-in(which is inappropriate). By moral virtue and justice sacrifice must be reciprocated, meaning both parities have to come to an arrangement that is mutually beneficial. If a relationship becomes one-sided(regardless of what type or who) them it isn’t a relationship and a toxic relation instead. That’s when boundaries or moving away from it becomes paramount to maintain health. No one has the right regardless of authority to ask for you to put yourself at risk of physical or financial or emotional harm. That’s abuse of authority. Sometimes we have to ask ourselves if we are doing this. Other times we must ask ourselves if others are doing it to ourselves or people we know. Establishing healthy relationships and limiting or outright getting rid of toxic ones is crucial if someone wants to progress. They cannot progress while they are being drained. To progress people need energy and positive thinking and self searching.

Anyways, I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. Others are there in the background not calling attention to themselves. It is wonderful to serve, but it must be in ones own time and place doing what they themselves love to do with their strengths. It has the opposite effect if it is conditioned or forced, or feared. It’s lovely only when it Initiates from the inside out without being asked or coerced. Giving of ones self willingly without undo sacrifice(or asked sacrifice) to self. But at the right time and place which is the persons own call. Then it is beautiful, then it works wonders. But setting those boundaries is up to each person. People have a habit if asking and intentionally or unintentionally using people if they don’t set boundaries and continue to do so until they are set. The other party really sets good healthy boundaries in their own. So it is up to each to make others aware when they have crossed them in a polite way and in what way they are harming them by doing so. If they still continue, then the relationship became toxic and are a acting selfishly. Weather for their own interest or someone else’s. Let them know you would like to continue to help them when they are willing to listen and be respectful of your needs as well(Co-operation).

On the other hand, if you give yourself over completely to taking care of others while ignoring your need to be valued and cared for, your marriage will wear out like a broken machine. Too many marriages lose the love that makes the whole project work. Resentments build up over time, undermining the best of intentions.

Take note, because resentment is poison to love.

And, if one person “wins” all the time, love loses.

you can apply that to church “marriage” or church “relationship” as well. It hold equally true.

Curious to know if you were converts or did you have the same experience.

Born and raised. Junior Sunday School, primary, Deacons, etc.

I want to be obedient, I love to serve, and I want to progress. I’ve let all those things escape my control. Not going to be easy to change but I am more aware of what I need to do.

“my control” … exactly. Even obedience, service, progression… these are all up to each of us, not to anyone else. Obedience is the big one. If we think of obedience as “obedience to the Church” then we are in for troubled times. If we, instead, think of it as following a discipline that we have chosen for ourselves, then it can be a great source of strength and satisfaction. I don’t want in any way to minimize what you are saying, because I’ve felt it too, but it’s easier and better than you think. The Church is not a mediator between us and ‘God’ or ‘spirituality’. Think of it as an aid, not as the Way. I think when I started to do that, new lights started to go on. It can be an exciting time, and we will be there with you.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints functions in large measure because of the unpaid volunteer ministry of its members. In fact, this lay ministry is one of the Church’s most defining characteristics. In thousands of local congregations or “wards” around the world, members voluntarily participate in “callings” or assignments that provide meaningful opportunities to serve one another. It is common for Church members to spend 5-10 hours a week serving in their callings. Some callings, such as a bishop, women’s Relief Society president, or stake president may require 15-30 hours per week.

The lay leaders of a Latter-day Saint ward gather to discuss the welfare of the members of their congregation

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Callings in the Church are not sought after or campaigned for. Members are simply asked to be willing to accept assignments that come to them through Church leaders. These leaders seek inspiration through prayer about whom to call. Church members, for the most part, are willing to accept these callings.

For example, a member may serve as the leader of several congregations totaling thousands of Church members for a period of time, and, after concluding that service, he may be asked to teach a youth Sunday school class for a few 15-year-olds in a local congregation. Service, in whatever capacity, is viewed as contributing to the well-being of fellow congregants and the broader community.

Church Callings

According to the Church’s official handbook of instructions, bishops and stake presidents should seek spiritual guidance and consider each member’s personal or family circumstances when determining who might serve in a particular calling.

“Each calling should benefit the people who are served, the member, and the member’s family,” says the Church handbook. As Latter-day Saints participate in callings, they report feeling the joy that comes from serving others. They strongly believe in Christ’s statement that whosoever loses their life in service, “the same shall save it” (Luke 9:24).

I do not see assignments anywhere there do you?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-lay-ministry” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-lay-ministry

I also see that they need to consider for the good of all involved. Not just church needs. It’s safe to say they are not acting according to the church public policy announcements the church has set forth.

It’s really hard to make it more clear to all involved then that. It’s the requirement to consider the needs of all involved and if it is good for them and their families. Serving in a calling only later to find out it is hurting self or family is not inline ” Each calling should benefit the people who are served, the member, and the member’s family,”.

Something to think about. I hope it helps.

Think of it as an aid, not as the Way.

This view probably helps me more than most others. Just as the Sabbath was made for man, and man was not made for the Sabbath, so I love to remind myself that the church was made for man and man was not made for the church. Unfortunately, we are more often taught that we are made to obey the church.

Right now in my life, the church does not aid me. Maybe one day it will. I find my spirituality blossoming more without it. I just can’t shake the oppressive feeling I get just walking into church now. Taking the sacrament is probably one of the times that is truly personal for me. But the talks, the classes, the assignments…I just feel emotionally like I am in a room with no air flow. It is not worth it to me to pick through all of this to occasionally hear the inspirational talk. And I am not just talking about picking through boring or limited stuff. I am talking about having to endure shame-based ideas, conformity expectations, sexual rigidity, close-minded teachings about how to view other truths and religions, group-think, leader obedience, whitewashed primary teachings for my kids that I will have to keep undoing, etc. It’s not just about being patient while I participate in a group that has inspiration at times. It is about wading through harmful ideas in the name of doing service and seeking inspiration. The fact of the matter is, I can find opportunities for service and inspiration without the church and without the harmful ideas.

And I fully recognize that it takes more motivation to be of service outside of church. It takes more effort to seek them out. But it is my goal and my desire to help the human race more. Frankly, so much of my service in the church was out of obedience and not because I was learning to have true charity. I trust God to show me how to be more charitable one step at a time, instead of beating myself up for not being as charitable as I should.

It can suck when reality doesn’t match the ideal.

Agreed. Well intentioned good people, narrow views.

Also, good summary thalmar.