between a rock and a hard spot

keepswimmin,

Thanks for the great intro, and welcome! This site has been a Godsend for me, and I hope it will be for you as well. I look forward to hearing your perspective here.

Some thoughts from your intro:

– It’s not easy, but I believe it’s important not to worry about other people. There are judgmental people in the Church, no doubt, but that’s true in all walks of life and, I’m sure, in many/most/all religions. The key is to recognize that the majority of people are really wonderful. I find it helpful to try to understand people, just like I hope they understand me… even the annoying ones. I’m not always successful, but the trying is helpful. We recently had a family move into the ward and they were asked to speak. The guy really bothered me in his talk, and I was frustrated enough to point it out to my son as a way NOT to be. For months, I avoided him and counted myself lucky not to be like that. Then, slowly, I started to have more contact with him, reluctantly at first, but it became easier over time. I’ve come to realize that he, like many in the Church, is just a good person trying to be and do good. He and I might have a different approach, but I’ve had to admit that I myself was the one judging. Do he and I agree on same sex marriage? Probably not. So what? I’m getting more acquainted with him all the time, and I’ve overcome my prior angst… and it feels much better inside of me.

– On coffee and garments… It’s helpful to internalize both of these things. If we do something because other people are telling us it’s a commandment, it doesn’t do us any good, and will likely result in frustration. The WoW and wearing garments are, however, powerful spiritual aspects of our lives, should we decide to make them such. In both cases, they are signals of our devotion to God (if we let it be that way). Garments are fundamentally no different from wearing a wedding ring, a cross, a rope with three knots, or a yamaka. It’s a symbol of our devotion, plain and simple. If you can make it work that way for you, then fine. If you can’t, then don’t wear them. The worst reason of all is to wear them because somebody else tells you to. It’s the same with the WoW. Not drinking alcohol or coffee is the same as not eating pork in other religions. It’s something we choose to do as a sacrifice to show our devotion to God. I think of it as giving up something for Lent, but all the time. Having said all this, it has to work for you, and if it doesn’t there is no value in it. Nobody here is going to complain if you drink a beer, a coffee or don’t wear your garments all the time. But when it comes to spirituality, I do believe its good to have these kinds of symbols and actions and sacrifices that we make in order to follow a chosen discipline.

Hi keepswimmin. There is little to go on you personally so I will give general advice.

I do have no problem with the WOW or gourmets(other then that’s it’s a requirement).

I keep both but struggle with heat exhaustion in humid, hot environments. As for internalizing them, that can lead to good or very bad depending on your personality so I can’t say much. Particularly because I find the whole subjugation thing horrendous to begin with no matter who’s doing it(teaching it). Doing things just to show compliance and outward obedience to someone or something has shown to be pretty harmful for humanity on the whole.

So the question is, what helps you? Your going to have be very honest with yourself inwardly. It’s not someone rear jurisdiction to tell you what will help you without solid evidence it has or hasn’t,

For people in the church, three are slot of nice people do long as you avoid talking about religion or politics(ironically). Tend to get along great so long as I pretend to agree and keep my mouth shut. Otherwise it’s 10 times more judgmental then other places I serve(to note it’s the only dogmatic place I serve as well). With that being said, I see the same behavior just about anywhere I interact with people where dogmatism and Orthodoxy collide(it’s a well studied side affect).

Interacting in such environments(including church) is successful only if you can navigate the political and religious landmines). Learning to avoid what and when and exactly what to say and when.

What works for you and the interaction you take will largely be by feeling your way then by reading any book or advice.

It may be helpful to have interaction with a variety of different groups(if possible) to learn various techniques in interaction.

The good news is all of it is possible depending on your level of interest and energy and grasp of human interaction.

It’s hard to tell if you are just being modest or that others actually feel you are selfish. You seem to declare yourself as such, which is rare for me to hear.

In regards to WOW, it is church policy. As such it is used to extract outward markers of obedience as well as establish a unique market to separate the church from the pack. In and of itself is not harmful or sinful(according to what can be demonstrated) but is like many things required in a Orthodox Church or culture.

The usefulness of such a approach will vary from individual to individual. But orthodoxy is not a individual approach, it’s a shotgun approach to gospel.

I hope you find peace and hopefully someone here(or elsewhere) can help you find it is your trying to deceive to have peace.

I guess that is why I am so torn.. I respect the authority in our church and for the most part I accept the doctrine (there are some things I’m confused about and some subjects I ignore that I’ve heard from anti-mormons).

I’ve been in this confused spot for a while and I’m back and forth about it. I feel I gave up coffee the please man (bishop, missionaties, friends) and I wear garments in public and church to please the same. Yesterday I had an epiphany, I am doing it gor them not God.. I truly do not feel guilty to him for it otherwise I wouldn’t privately be OK with these things.. I do however feel guilty towards people like I’m lying to them but I do not feel God would keep blessings or worthiness from me for these things..

The reason I’m torn isn’t because I’m afraid these people would deem me as bad.. but it would keep me from certain things in the church one important thing being the temple.. which I have a current recommend and like I saI’d I don’t feel these feelings make me unworthy, my heart is where I believe it should be I love our heavenly father and christ and I am an honest person! But if I were to say hey bishop ive been drinking coffee and not wearing my garments I’m suddenly unworthy in the eyes of the church.

That is what pushes me to question things within the church.. I don’t feel these things are bad and I don’t feel they make you unclean.. I understand modesty is a thing of the past given what people accept for clothing these days and I understamd alcohol causes family problems and contributes to bad decisions but any honest God loving person will know when an outfit is risque and won’t party and take advantage of substances. I feel almost like it is taking agency away in a way..

One last subject I would like to touch on with the WoW.. if partaking of the things banned… why can we say we are living it when we eat way more meat than we should.. shove horrible foods into our bodies (I know not every family eats junk but honestly I know more families that eat horribly daily than I do who eat healthy. Putting these things into our bodies are just as if not more harmful than these “forbidden” substances. But we are never ridiculed on them.. only coffee tea and alcohol and tobacco..

As I said earlier I am not justifying my actions, these are just my personal thoughts on the topic and its what is driving me away.. I kind of tried talking to my bishop but tested waters and got the typical answers.. I just don’t feel if I’m doing it to please man that I’m pleasing God.. there is actually a scripture that comes to mind, don’t know reference off top of my head but its in Matthew.

I hope this clarified my post a little more.. I tend to have a lot go on in my head and try tackling it all in writing and it comes out a jumbled mess haha. Any further thoughts are encouraged anyone I try talking to about this doesn’t really care.. which is another thing I feel lonely about.. most people have issues with authority.. mine are mote temporal and no one ever knows what to say.

Actually your epiphany was great (as they tend to be, otherwise they wouldn’t be life changing). So you have realized you wear garments and keep the WoW only to please man. On the other hand you realize that some of these men (bishop, SP) have legitimate judgement over you and if you told them about it they may prevent you from going to the temple, but you want to go to the temple. Do I have that right?

I wore garments for many years for no other reason than to keep the peace at home. I think removing the garments may have been the proverbial straw in the eyes of my wife. I do not believe they are magic or offer any kind of protection spiritually or physically. They may help one remember his or her covenants, but I can’t honestly say they do that for me. Likewise I live the WoW not because I think it’s a commandment, but because I never cared for tea, coffee, alcohol, or tobacco much anyway and because I do think some of it is good advice, and because based on my family history I think I may have a predisposition to become addicted (one part of my family are all alcoholics and 2 pack smokers – literally).

Ideally I would do these things because I would be doing it out of love of God or love for my neighbor, or as On Own Now said it would be a sign of my devotion to God. Alas, that is not the case. From what you have said that doesn’t appear to be the case for you, either. The question in the TR interview asks about wearing the garment night and day as instructed in the temple (paraphrased). Can you come to a point where you feel honest in saying yes to that questions without actually wearing them 24/7/365 (which is not actually the question)? Sort of like tithing – those of us who pay other than 10% on gross have come to a place where we feel honest in answering that question because we are being honest. I really don’t see how taking your garments off on a hot day for a few hours would really have an eternal consequence (understanding that I don’t wear them because I think it’s a commandment).

My wife also believes caffeine is part of the WoW (although she has come around on the subject, mostly because of the kids and Mitt Romney). She doesn’t, however, have a problem with me or the kids drinking caffeinated soda – she just doesn’t do it herself. (If you’re wondering, yes she can be a bit “holier than thou” sometimes.) Honestly, if I liked coffee I would probably drink it, maybe only at work and maybe not all the time. Section 89 only says “hot drinks are not for the body.” There is enough ambiguity there for me, especially since I don’t even consider it to be a commandment. I think if I weren’t an addicted every day drinker of coffee (or beer, or tea) I would feel OK saying that I live the WoW. It’s up to you to decide where your comfort level is and reach that level.

Oh, almost forgot. In your spot I would not tell the bishop at this point I wasn’t wearing the garments or keeping the WoW. That could come back to bite you. I would also refrain from attending the temple, but that’s just me. For me it would be because if I felt I couldn’t answer those two questions properly I wouldn’t be able to answer the last one (the most important one in my view) properly.

Maybe that’s part of the issue – I don’t believe God expects to do all kinds of things to prove we love him. I don’t think he asks much of us at all, actually. The gospel is very simple. Studying is a true blue answer, but it may not work. Maybe what you need to do is what many others have done here – try to separate the gospel and the church. They are different and the church’s expectations are not necessarily gospel expectations. This was the biggest and best thing I did in rebuilding my faith – it’s quite liberating, in fact.

I feel so much like I am between a rock and a hard spot. I feel very much like I am being forced to follow certain rules that I think miss the mark in order that I may experience certain spiritual things that have a lot of meaning and power for me. I have gone through a process for many years regarding sexuality and the WoW. I treat sexual addictions for a living. I treat drug addictions for a living. I have worked for years with LDS people who consider themselves to be sex addicts simply because they masturbate. They are being identified by spouses and bishops as sex addicts, when they actually do not meet any real criteria for sex addiction.

I see similar dynamics with the WoW. I see LDS people become downright obsessive about avoiding caffeine, alcohol, and coffee and completely disregard the actual consequences of real health. Some wine is good for you. Alcohol has some benefits but obviously can become addictive, like most things in life. A mountain dew will always be far worse for your health than coffee, yet one will keep you out of the temple (if you admit drinking coffee) and the other won’t.

I simply completely disagree now with what the word of wisdom has become in our modern church. I have not once heard a GA speak about following the word of wisdom by seeking organic food, avoiding processed foods, eating sugar in moderation, etc. Only the alcohol and coffee and drugs are mentioned. I have watched people in my counseling become absolutely drowned in sexual shame for masturbating or looking at porn sometimes. The shame can be so powerful. I just recently had an LDS family I work with, where the 15-yr-old daughter had her first sexual experience through oral sex and the father, when he found out about it, told her what she did was next to murder. !!!!!!!!!!!! The anger that kindles in me is so strong, because I get to work firsthand with the intense damage. There are few messages that can be sent that are more damaging to a young teenager than to teach them that their sexual desires or mistakes with sexual behaviors is next to murder. They are so far apart. Adultery, wherein true betrayal takes place and hearts are literally broken to pieces…now that I can see as being up in the ranks of serious sins. I know how I would feel if my fiancé cheated on me and even thinking about a hypothetical is almost too much for me to contemplate. But adolescent sexual experimenting is nothing of the sort. It is risky. It can be dangerous. It can be harmful…but it is nothing like what church culture states it to be.

These issues signify missing the mark to such a great degree in my mind that I can barely stand it at times. I have decided to drink alcohol at times. I feel very passionately about avoiding addiction. I feel passionately about moderation in all things. My fiancé and I are sexual, because my heart is tied to her more securely than any temple ordinance or legal paper could create for me. I live healthier than I ever have. I eat raw foods. I pay conscious attention to my health. Back in the days of strict WoW obedience, I barely paid attention to my health, but boy did I do a good job on those things. And I got to go to the temple as a result. Back in the days of strict obedience to sexual standards, I could go to the temple, but I was clueless as to what healthy sexuality looked like. I was rife with fear of women tempting me. I was terrified of sexual mistakes. I carried heavy shame about my own sexual desires. I feared my sexual desires. To engage in sexual sin really was next to murder in my mind, because that is what the church taught. I spent most of my life feeling terrible about myself and pleading to God in agony to remove my sexual ‘temptations.’ Now, sex has become a truly holy thing for me. I value it as a wonderful, bonding experience. And I have not fear of it anymore. I honor the power it has to bring people close together and I guard the trust it brings with it with great determination. I know how valuable it is and how much the violation of sexual trust can bring to a partner.

In other words, I follow the spirit of physical health and healthy, spiritual sexuality more than I ever had in my life. And I can’t go to the temple because of it. Sure, I could choose to not drink any coffee or alcohol at all. I could choose to be celibate until we are officially married, so I can go to the temple and answer the covenant questions honestly. But I just can’t bring myself to follow a rule just to jump through hoops. I miss the temple deeply. Some of my most powerful spiritual experiences have been there. I know God would speak to me there, just as he does in other places. But I cannot abandon certain aspects of the beautiful relationship I have with my fiancé to go there. To sacrifice that part in the name of going there would be disingenuous to me.

I think I am ranting now. It is obvious that I feel strongly about this, but I have seen too much pain in my own life and in the life of my clients because of strict rules that miss the mark. It is sad to me how little so many LDS people know about a truly erotic, passionate, holy sex life…the kind where sex and God and your partner are intertwined.

I love my life more than I ever have. But there are wounds and I miss the temple. I don’t even know if the ordinances are literal or not, but I miss it. I don’t see how I can answer TR questions without feeling like I am blatantly lying. I feel like I follow the law of chastity, because I honor my sexual commitment to my fiancé with complete fidelity. That is the spirit of the law to me. But the church, including the temple, is very specific about what chastity means. I don’t feel like I can ‘stretch it’ on this one. Even though I feel at peace about it with God.

Thanks for letting me get some feelings out. I hope I didn’t sound to much like I was on a soap box.

I do this a lot with new participants, but it might help a lot to search our archives for posts about garments and the Word of Wisdom. There are quite a few, and some of them have (at least) dozens of comments.

Use the Search function at the top right of the page.