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  • #208968
    Anonymous
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    Today, I was reminded of Shakespeare’s King Henry the IV Part 1 in which a main character usurps the power of a family who had claimed the divine right of kings for several generations. In the setting of this play, the ruling power was established by birthright, not by military strength, merit, or any other standard but birth. The play I saw at Stratford theatre bathed the usurper of power (not the legitimate heir to the throne) in red light when he ascended to power, which implied his rise to power was illegitimate and dubious.

    30 years ago, I wrote an essay on this in an English class, and concluded that although the legitimate heir to the throne had many leadership weaknesses, the divine right of kings was necessary for preserving order, preventing War, and creating stability in the kingdom. I also concluded that even the apparently superior leadership of the illegitimate usurper of power was secondary to the stability and order the birth right method brought to the kingdom.

    Should we look at priesthood authority the same way? Although we have dispensed with birthright, we do acknolwedge a form of succession in which people in authority pass authority to others through an objective process, or through revelation. And sure, this often leads to leadership and prophets who have led the church astray (such as the priesthood ban). It also leads to the installation of local leaders who damage local congregations at times with bad leadership.

    But should these weaknesses be overlooked in the name of “supporting our local leaders” so at least there IS an authority of religious matters and therefore, stability in our religion?

    Just curious what you think.

    #287043
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I would suggest that there is a vast expanse between enlisted members (stake level and below) and officers (70’s and up) in terms of authority. No one of the enlisted men, no matter how long they have served, will ever outrank a GA. Other than controlling the affairs of their own stakes/wards and managing the pittance of budget, no enlisted man can apply for promotion, or have any influence on church policy or procedure. If a certain enlisted man is very charismatic and valiant, no amount of support or petition from his ward/stake members will grant him special favor with the officers. He cannot be voted in or run for office.

    The only way to bridge that gap is to have his name advanced by the officers, and it seems they prefer to keep their circle of power from being contaminated by, oh let’s say a simple fisherman or a carpenter.

    In summary, the lay clergy and general members of the chrch have priesthood authority to do intangible things when exercising the power of God. They can bless the sacrament, but how do you know anything actually happened to it? They can bless a person who is sick, and they might or might not get better. They have authority in the social fiction of the church.

    However if a GA was to bless the sacrament, members would feel strongly that it is somehow more blessed or more sacred, than when brother Jake did it, because the real authority is in the idea of the social fiction, regardless of it being the same prayer and same priesthood authority. The worst part of this, is when the person in authority feels every crazy idea is inspired by God, and there is no filter anymore to give balance and prevent abuse.

    #287044
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    it seems they prefer to keep their circle of power from being contaminated by, oh let’s say a simple fisherman or a carpenter.

    Two things:

    1) There are good examples of apostles right now who started out as teachers, for example, from humble backgrounds. However, given the responsibilities of leading a multi-million member denomination in our modern world, all of them possess at least a college degree. That is not in opposition to the composition of Jesus’ “top leadership” back in the day.

    2) “Simple fisherman or a carpenter” is not an accurate way to describe the early apostles. There are passages that indicate the fishermen actually were fleet owners – and when you look closely at the composition of the leading disciples during Jesus’ ministry it appears most of them would have been considered “professionals” at that time. Jesus appears not to have been wealthy, but that isn’t certain, either – and he appears to have had connections to wealthy people. This next statement is less certain and more speculative, but it also appears the closest disciples and a few other targeted, rich (or relatively rich) individuals financed Jesus’ ministry – which required a Treasurer. I would guess that all of his top disciples were well-educated for their time – and John, particularly, seems well-versed in philosophy and poetry. Finally, Saul/Paul (the man who made the early church international) was a highly educated, surely wealthy religious convert.

    We have these idealized stories about Jesus’ disciples being simple, uneducated, common folk – but the actual record doesn’t support those stories very well.

    #287045
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Perhaps a 14 year old boy fits the bill?

    Founding a religion is a bit different than maintaining one. In the beginning you’ve got to select leaders through unconventional means because the convention hasn’t been established. I suppose these days the calling of bishop is proving grounds for stake presidents, the calling of stake president is proving grounds for the general authority, and so on. I certainly don’t expect to see the next apostle coming out of the ranks of someone that’s only ever served as an EQP for instance. They haven’t been proven yet… or they haven’t had callings which facilitate learning learn line upon line. There’s an order to it, for the most part it works out.

    Still it makes me wonder if convention has trumped revelation. Meaning the top leaders of the church would be completely cut off from revelation indicating that a “nobody” be called as an apostle simply because it falls so far outside the established pattern. Of course the established pattern itself is a result of revelation so if it is the lord’s will that a “nobody” become an apostle they will rise through the ranks, become a “somebody,” and then be called up to apostleship.

    We’re never going to have leaders that don’t have weaknesses. The question then becomes, what does it mean to overlook weakness?

    Reflexzero wrote:

    However if a GA was to bless the sacrament, members would feel strongly that it is somehow more blessed or more sacred, than when brother Jake did it, because the real authority is in the idea of the social fiction, regardless of it being the same prayer and same priesthood authority.

    This same scenario plays out nearly every single Sunday in many wards. A bishop’s comment (or a person with what some would view as a prestigious calling) is held in higher regard. Making a comment in class doesn’t require priesthood. I chalk it up to human nature, celebrity culture. A visiting GA is a celeb in the church so some people are going to think what they say and do is more important. I don’t think it has much to do with the priesthood itself, especially considering that we’re always taught that the prophet has the same priesthood as the recently ordained elder. Please don’t start talking about keys now. ;)

    #287046
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    Meaning the top leaders of the church would be completely cut off from revelation indicating that a “nobody” be called as an apostle simply because it falls so far outside the established pattern.

    Yes, I agree with that, generally speaking. Elder Oaks’ use of the word “pattern” to explain why only men are ordained to offices in the priesthood highlights this tendency.

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