With Exactness

I agree that the Church culture can work toward enforcement of a particular version of “exactness” – but I also believe that is true of almost every organization and society in existence. Even nudist colonies, at one extreme, do it – since the entire point is to provide a place for people who see things the same way to congregate.

Going deeper:

I believe completely in “with exactness” – but I apply it to doing exactly what I think is best to do, based on my own conscience and circumstances. That can mean doing something one time and not another time – speaking up in one situation and not in another. I try to follow my own “exactness” – and I also try to allow everyone else to follow theirs without condemning or ridiculing them. The only exceptions are when it is enforced so strictly that exceptions simply don’t exist – and the LDS Church is not there. Some wards and branches are there or really close to it, but, as a general rule, the LDS Church is not.

Finally:

Jesus preached “with exactness” in quite a few instances – just not the same “with exactness” as others around him. In multiple cases, what he taught was even more strict than what the people were used to hearing. (“You have heard it said . . . but I say . . .” – with adultery vs. lustful thoughts being perhaps the best example.) We just like to focus on the times when he was less strict – like picking corn and eating it on the Sabbath and not condemning the woman taken in adultery.

I have shared this previously, but, to nibbler’s personal example, when I was asked to teach the oldest youth Sunday School class, my Bishop told me:

These kids have been taught really well how to read a flight manual. Now they need to learn to fly their own planes.

The issue, imo, is NOT the concept of “with exactness” but rather the tendency to remain children of God and never move into spiritual adulthood – as Hawkgrrrl says, to not become adults of God.

I have never been in a ward other than a “No Fun on Sunday” Mormons.

Ha, right there with you. I chalk it up to human nature… people can see what you are and aren’t doing on Sunday and if people can see something then they might use what they see to judge and elevate themselves above others. That goes in every walk of life.

Hey, it could be worse… ever been in a culture dominated by the “No Fun on Days Ending In Y” group? You’re having a conversation about a TV show and someone interjects: We don’t watch TV in our home because we think it’s a bad influence. :yawn:

I have shared this previously, but, to nibbler’s personal example, when I was asked to teach the oldest youth Sunday School class, my Bishop told me:

These kids have been taught really well how to read a flight manual. Now they need to learn to fly their own planes.

The issue, imo, is NOT the concept of “with exactness” but rather the tendency to remain children of God and never move into spiritual adulthood – as Hawkgrrrl says, to not become adults of God.

Yeah, and I believe it takes a special environment to allow that to happen. I think we could do a better job of allowing people to transition into an adult of god. Sometimes the “with exactness” translates into frowning on any deviation from a norm with no regard for the uniqueness of the individual and how god might see them.

So going back to my original comment and tying it into yours… my way forward is to find my exactness and be exact to that.

VikingCompass, “do this, get that” is a universal truism – and I mean, generally speaking, a literal truism. There are millions of possible examples, so I will mention only one. People who eat poorly and don’t exercise in any way end up with physical and medical issues, and those issues are more extreme the less well people eat. The general concept is that we reap what we sow – and Jesus taught that explicitly.

The Sermon on the Mount is chalk full of “do this, get that” statements, starting with a list of things people can do / characteristics people can develop that will make them “blessed” – with a specific “get that” attached to each “do this”. Jesus then goes on to say clear “do this, get that” things like:

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

“If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

“Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

There are hundreds of examples, so I will stop at the first three that popped into my mind.

The issue I see is NOT the concept of “do this, get that” but rather the exact nature of each example. Some are wonderful and obvious; some are great and somewhat obvious; some are good or reasonable but not as obvious; some are not so good or even bad but not as obvious; some are really bad and either obvious or not; some are horrible and obvious; some are beyond abominable and obvious. Interestingly, however, the judgment along the good/bad scale can vary among people – as can the degree of obviousness.

Thus, I am left with knowing that “with exactness” can be good OR bad – as can “do this, get that”. It’s not the existence of those concepts that is the issue; rather, it’s the nature of each and every example – and the extent to which they are compelled. As Roy, I believe, has said here in the past (sorry if it was someone else), it also is the human tendency to confuse formulas with patterns – turning general concepts into universal absolutes.

Obedience and Authority

Obedience is compliance with commands given by an authority figure. In the 1960s, the social psychologist Stanley Milgram did a famous research study called the obedience study. It showed that people have a strong tendency to comply with authority figures.

Milgram’s Obedience Study

Milgram told his forty male volunteer research subjects that they were participating in a study about the effects of punishment on learning. He assigned each of the subjects to the role of teacher. Each subject was told that his task was to help another subject like himself learn a list of word pairs. Each time the learner made a mistake, the teacher was to give the learner an electric shock by flipping a switch. The teacher was told to increase the shock level each time the learner made a mistake, until a dangerous shock level was reached.

Throughout the course of the experiment, the experimenter firmly commanded the teachers to follow the instructions they had been given. In reality, the learner was not an experiment subject but Milgram’s accomplice, and he never actually received an electric shock. However, he pretended to be in pain when shocks were administered.

Prior to the study, forty psychiatrists that Milgram consulted told him that fewer than 1 percent of subjects would administer what they thought were dangerous shocks to the learner. However, Milgram found that two-thirds of the teachers did administer even the highest level of shock, despite believing that the learner was suffering great pain and distress. Milgram believed that the teachers had acted in this way because they were pressured to do so by an authority figure.

Factors That Increase Obedience

Milgram found that subjects were more likely to obey in some circumstances than others. Obedience was highest when:

Commands were given by an authority figure rather than another volunteer

The experiments were done at a prestigious institution

The authority figure was present in the room with the subject

The learner was in another room

The subject did not see other subjects disobeying commands

In everyday situations, people obey orders because they want to get rewards, because they want to avoid the negative consequences of disobeying, and because they believe an authority is legitimate. In more extreme situations, people obey even when they are required to violate their own values or commit crimes. Researchers think several factors cause people to carry obedience to extremes:

People justify their behavior by assigning responsibility to the authority rather than themselves.

People define the behavior that’s expected of them as routine.

People don’t want to be rude or offend the authority.

People obey easy commands first and then feel compelled to obey more and more difficult commands. This process is called entrapment, and it illustrates the foot-in-the-door phenomenon.

Having grown up my entire life around authoritarian figures, family and other wise; I have spent the rest of my time trying to understand both why I would do things I never would normally do and others as well.

I’ve come along way and while co-operation is paramount in any society obedience with exactness is an example of a society that went horribly wrong with ethics. Mostly because there is no positive value in it as a whole system of life approach. Second because it has very serious negative emotional consequences.

It is the racer oppositely autonomous, becoming and inoculation to becoming an automaton. I was not able to inwardly feel emotion the more I surrendered my will to others with exactness, because I couldn’t feel like a human being(after all obedience with exactness is what automaton or robots are for. But not animals much less humans.

I final scope I can understand how and why it takes place now. But a life with obedience with exactness is no life at worth anything at all. I would rather have all the self learning and exploring and trying to find what’s right on my own by my own experience and by meta data studies then get blessing of all the world and universe combined and sacrifice that for them.

It highlights what it means to live and love a life worthwhile. Something Thomas Jefferson knew well. As did the Haitians and others. When I hear such things I just laugh now, make a joke on the inside and reframe it to something far more healthy –Co-operation of society to get things done. A relationship of give and take based in both needs.

There is so much I would like to say on this topic, I just hope I don’t run on for pages.

1. With exactness is born of fear. It’s not an unjustified fear, but fear none the less. America perfected “exactness” following 2 horrific World Wars. We no longer were explorers, we were followers. War had hurt, the wars hadn’t even been ours, but we didn’t want to go back. We still don’t. The initial ideas were that if we were a diligent Judeo-Christian, hard working society we could keep the world from repeating the 2 atrocities that had already cost us too much.

2. No matter what we as members imagine – our church is effected by Society. Food storage, fast offerings, etc were all affects of WWI, the great depression, and WWII. We don’t ever want to be caught like that again.

3. How to behave on Sunday – and even Monday Nights for FHE were created in the 1960’s and 1970’s. I believe they were leaderships fear of the American Culture change. I say this because I have heard plenty of Sabbath activities that were practiced by the members in the 1960’s and 1970’s that are now no-no’s on the Sunday School list. My mom’s a convert some of her favorite memories were Sunday soda shop stops with the Young Adults in her ward. Or a restaraunt for dessert after a fire side. An older family friend remembers selling lunches between sessions of Stake Conference, and having picnics with with those lunches. Mother’s Day brunch was not frowned upon when I was a girl in 1970 – and living in Provo. Everyone did it. Now we have lists. Time though can do miraculous things.

4. Each ward has it’s own energy. I grew up in a very business like, upwardly mobile ward. We had fun, but we were competitive. Our “churchness” was part of the competition. No one ever said it, but it was always there. About 20 years ago my parents moved to a neighboring stake and ward, less than 15 minutes away from the one I grew up in. This new ward is the warmest, most embracing, fun, jovial, social ward I have ever seen. These people serve food at everything. And it’s not chips and store bought goodies, no. The High Priests regularly make homemade fresh waffles on the 4th Sunday – for any and all who wish to eat. The ward is constantly hosting some fun dinner, game night,etc. at people’s homes. Moreover – everyone in the ward travels. A lot. It isn’t weird for the Jensons to be out of town for the next month. No one panics. If the Jensons went some where exotic like Italy – they host the ward to slide shows, fun foods, a small culture night. The Exactness they are working towards is “Welcome – Glad to have you.”

5. My last thought is – you can affect the change. I have lived in the same house for 18 years. I have been a member of 4 different wards, based on boundary changes. Rumor is we have another one coming up in September. In that time I have served and observed – people make all the difference. I have seen letter of the law leaders become spirit of the law leaders. I have watched angry people drive people away. I have seen hard line people softened by gentle messages from people who care. You can be that person. Seriously.

*For the record I know what you are talking about, a boy quit dating my daughter because we went on family bike rides on Sunday when she was a girl and now her dad is inactive – so clearly our Sabbath day activities cast us out. Bummer for him. She is a cool girl. He missed it. His loss. Our gain. Still bike riding on Sundays. 🙂

I read your post yesterday while waiting in the doctor’s office, VC, but didn’t have time yesterday to answer. Frankly, I couldn’t agree more with what you said. I think it is very easy to get caught up in all the other stuff and forget the core principles of the gospel because we’re trying to be too exact with something that’s really not very exact – there is no quantitative measure for loving your neighbor or loving God. Thanks for the post.