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Hi All, Don’t post often anymore but still like this group and your opinions. My husband and I have not been active in the lds church for about 4 years now for numerous reasons, but we still like some of the lds teachings (example: lds trinity being separate beings and that man is god in embreyo). We have not asked for our names to be taken off the church rolls and even though we are very active in several Christian churches that we like, we have no desire to ever join any other church.
My older brother and his wife are still very active in the lds church and temple workers. They still hope we return to the lds church someday and love to drop us emails with articles from Meridian mag. They told us they do not want to hear any of the reasons we left or why we have problems with the church/leaders, history. I have tried to be polite and not shake any ones faith, but sometimes, they come across so self-righteous and it takes all my self-control to not tell them off.
Recently, my lds sister came to stay with me for 10 days. She was very ill and my husband and I took good care of her. I was surprised that she had started drinking coffee at starbucks and telling me how much she loves coffee. I did not say anything because I do not see that as a bad thing. She is seriously diabetic and eats sugar and ice cream all day long which I think is much worse. But, I know she has a temple recommend so I was surprised. Anyway, when my brother called to check on my sister, I unfortunately mentioned her coffee drinking. When my sister got home, I heard that my brother raked her over the coals for drinking coffee ocassionally and made her feel like this was the worst thing in the world. Now he checks on her reqularly and asks her how her problem is doing. I apologized profusely to my sister for saying anything to my brother. She was upset with me, but we are very close and quickly made up. Last week my brother calls me and asks me if my husband and I have been sealed in the temple (which he knows we have). He then proceeds to tell me in an authoritith, self-righteous, pharissee, manner that because we have left the church we will not be together in the next life. I told him that our names were still on church records and we have not joined any other church, but we no longer believe in the temple ordinances, or Book of M. and other things. I told him that we do not believe the lds church is the only true church and that we did not think God would condemn us for not knowing that. It felt like an interogation and judgmental, even though I am sure he thought he was just trying to get us to think seriously (as if we had not all these years). Why is it that TBM family members/ect. feel they have to threaten us with loosing our marriage and salvation (like we did not take leaving the church seriously when they know it was very serious for us.) Fear is often a tactic many religions use to keep people in line. My husband and I are honest truth seekers but did not get the spiritual experiences and witnesses others have in the church. We got just the opposite infact, but of course that means to our lds loved ones that we must be sinners or inspired by the devil.
Anyway, my question to you all is” Should I just ignore this stuff from my brother or is there something I should say to set boundaries or defend myself?
Thanks for posting and I’m glad you thought of us with your question. I, too, value the opinions found here. You are absolutely right, many teachings of people in the church (notice I didn’t say church teachings) are based on fear, keeping the commandments, following the prophets, etc. My missionary son and I recently had this conversation via email – wouldn’t it be great if everyone just kept the two great commandments because they want to – because they love the Lord – instead of because we’re afraid not to or because we’re trying to score some blessing? He and I agree that there should be only the two great commandments. You seem to have explained your stance to your brother as he explained his to you. Neither of you seem likely to significantly change. You might try the 11th Article of Faith on him: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow
all menthe same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. I emphasized all men because I think that’s what it means – it doesn’t say all men outside the church, it says allmen. Other than that, I’d just agree to disagree – which you can also do without quoting the AoF. You may also want to set some boundaries for yourself and simply say something like “We’ve had this discussion, you know what I believe, I love you but I don’t want to discuss this with you anymore. How are the kids?” As a side note, I don’t recall anywhere in the temple where it says your ordinances are null and void because of inactivity – what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.
Hi bridget_night, I’m sorry for the strained relationships you are experiencing. Based on how your brother has responded to your choices, I’m not sure “defending” yourself will promote peace and healing in your relationship. However, I definitely think you should establish boundaries. It might be as simple as letting him know you will be walking away from any conversations involving spirituality or the church that turn from uplifting to shaming. Good luck.
Quote:By Sherrie Bourg Carter, Psy.D. on August 7, 2011 – 12:59pm
Our society is more health conscious than ever before. We are paying increased attention to nutrition labels, fitness opportunities, organic alternatives, toxin-free environments, and more.
And yet even many health-conscious people don’t realize that the quality of their relationships can be just as toxic to their health as fast food or a toxic environment. In fact, unhealthy relationships can turn into exactly that—a toxic internal environment that can lead to stress, depression, anxiety, and even medical problems.
In a long-term study that followed more than 10,000 subjects for an average of 12.2 years, researchers discovered that subjects in negative relationships were at a greater risk for developing heart problems, including a fatal cardiac event, than counterparts whose close relationships were not negative.
Toxic relationships can take many forms—toxic partners, toxic friendships, toxic parent/child relationships, or toxic coworkers, to name just a few. No relationship, of course, is blissful and conflict-free all the time. How do you know if you’re in a toxic relationship? Your answers to these questions can help you figure it out:
When you’re with the person, do you usually feel content, even energized? Or do you often feel unfulfilled and drained?
After you spend time with him or her, do you usually feel better or worse about yourself?
Do you feel physically and or emotionally safe with this person, or do you ever feel threatened or in danger?
Is there a fairly equal “give and take,” or do you feel like you’re always giving and he or she is always taking?
Is the relationship characterized by feelings of security and contentment, or drama and angst?
Do you feel like he or she is happy with who you are, or do you feel like you have to change to make him or her happy?
Now compare your answers to the following characteristics of healthy and toxic relationships:
Healthy relationships are characterized by: compassion, security, safety, freedom of thinking, sharing, listening, mutual love and caring, healthy debates and disagreements, and respectfulness, especially when there are differences in opinions.
Toxic relationships are characterized by: insecurity, abuse of power and control, demandingness, selfishness, insecurity, self-centeredness, criticism, negativity, dishonesty, distrust, demeaning comments and attitudes, and jealousy.
In short, healthy relationships tend to leave you feeling happy and energized. Toxic relationships tend to leave you feeling depressed and depleted.
Changing Toxic Relationships
The first step to changing a toxic relationship is to recognize you’re in one. Many people in unhealthy relationships are in denial, even when friends or family members can see the danger signs and have told them so.
The next step, equally as important, is to believe that you deserve to be treated with respect, love, and compassion. There are many reasons people stay in unhealthy relationships, but one common one is underlying low self-esteem that makes some people believe that they don’t deserve anything better. This kind of change in thinking, however, may not come easily, and may require professional support from an objective third party, such as a counselor or a life coach.
Once you come to believe that you deserve to be treated differently, the next step—addressing toxic behavior when it occurs—becomes easier. When doing this, use “I” statements as much as possible, to reduce the likelihood of a defensive reaction. For example: “I feel like you find fault in almost everything I do and it makes me feel [fill in the blank]. I (love/respect/care about) you, and I’d appreciate it if you would stop [fill in the blank].”
(Note: You should only do this if it is safe. If you are in a physically abusive relationship, this kind of confrontation may not be safe. Before doing anything that risks your safety, you should contact a professional with experience dealing with domestic violence or contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline for more information.)
Finally, if nothing you do or say changes the toxic behavior, consider separating yourself or at least distancing yourself from the source of the toxicity. For partners, this may mean temporary or permanent separation. For parents and children, this may mean having less contact. For coworkers, this may mean distancing yourself as much as is feasible. But doing nothing will only expose you to the unhealthy physical and psychological effects of stress and ongoing conflict.
Positive relationships are an important part of the formula for a healthy, well-balanced life. So make sure your health-conscious lifestyle doesn’t leave out this crucial ingredient.
Quote:― C. JoyBell C.
Psychological manipulation can be defined as the exercise of undue influence through mental distortion and emotional exploitation, with the intention to seize power, control, benefits, and privileges at the victim’s expense.
It is important to distinguish healthy social influence from psychological manipulation. Healthy social influence occurs between most people, and is part of the give and take of constructive relationships. In psychological manipulation, one person is used for the benefit of another. The manipulator deliberately creates an imbalance of power, and exploits the victim to serve his or her agenda.
Most manipulative individuals have four common characteristics:
They know how to detect your weaknesses.
Once found, they use your weaknesses against you.
Through their shrewd machinations, they convince you to give up something of yourself in order to serve their self-centered interests.
In work, social, and family situations, once a manipulator succeeds in taking advantage of you, he or she will likely repeat the violation until you put a stop to the exploitation.
Root causes for chronic manipulation are complex and deep-seated. But whatever drives an individual to be psychologically manipulative, it’s not easy when you’re on the receiving end of such aggression. How can one successfully manage these situations? Here are eight keys to handling manipulative people. Not all of the tips below may apply to your particular situation. Simply utilize what works and leave the rest.
For more in-depth tools on how to effectively handle difficult individuals, download free excerpts of my publications (click on titles) “How to Successfully Handle Passive-Aggressive People,” “How to Communicate Effectively and Handle Difficult People,” and “Communication Success with Four Personality Types.”
1. Know Your Fundamental Human Rights*
The single most important guideline when you’re dealing with a psychologically manipulative person is to know your rights, and recognize when they’re being violated. As long as you do not harm others, you have the right to stand up for yourself and defend your rights. On the other hand, if you bring harm to others, you may forfeit these rights. Following are some of our fundamental human rights:
You have the right to be treated with respect.
You have the right to express your feelings, opinions and wants.
You have the right to set your own priorities.
You have the right to say “no” without feeling guilty.
You have the right to get what you pay for.
You have the right to have opinions different than others.
You have the right to take care of and protect yourself from being threatened physically, mentally or emotionally.
You have the right to create your own happy and healthy life.
These fundamental human rights represent your boundaries.
Of course, our society is full of people who do not respect these rights. Psychological manipulators, in particular, want to deprive you of your rights so they can control and take advantage of you. But you have the power and moral authority to declare that it is you, not the manipulator, who’s in charge of your life.
2. Keep Your Distance
One way to detect a manipulator is to see if a person acts with different faces in front of different people and in different situations. While all of us have a degree of this type of social differentiation, some psychological manipulators tend to habitually dwell in extremes, being highly polite to one individual and completely rude to another—or totally helpless one moment and fiercely aggressive the next. When you observe this type of behavior from an individual on a regular basis, keep a healthy distance, and avoid engaging with the person unless you absolutely have to. As mentioned earlier, reasons for chronic psychological manipulation are complex and deep-seated. It is not your job to change or save them.
3. Avoid Personalization and Self-Blame
Since the manipulator’s agenda is to look for and exploit your weaknesses, it is understandable that you may feel inadequate, or even blame yourself for not satisfying the manipulator. In these situations, it’s important to remember that you are not the problem; you’re simply being manipulated to feel bad about yourself, so that you’re more likely to surrender your power and rights. Consider your relationship with the manipulator, and ask the following questions:
Am I being treated with genuine respect?
Are this person’s expectations and demands of me reasonable?
Is the giving in this relationship primarily one way or two ways?
Ultimately, do I feel good about myself in this relationship?
Your answers to these questions give you important clues about whether the “problem” in the relationship is with you or the other person.
4. Put the Focus on Them by Asking Probing Questions
Inevitably, psychological manipulators will make requests (or demands) of you. These “offers” often make you go out of your way to meet their needs. When you hear an unreasonable solicitation, it’s sometimes useful to put the focus back on the manipulator by asking a few probing questions, to see if she or he has enough self-awareness to recognize the inequity of their scheme. For example:
“Does this seem reasonable to you?”
“Does what you want from me sound fair?”
“Do I have a say in this?”
“Are you asking me or telling me?”
“So, what do I get out of this?”
“Are you really expecting me to [restate the inequitable request]?”
When you ask such questions, you’re putting up a mirror, so the manipulator can see the true nature of his or her ploy. If the manipulator has a degree of self-awareness, he or she will likely withdraw the demand and back down.
On the other hand, truly pathological manipulators will dismiss your questions and insist on getting their way. If this occurs, apply ideas from the following tips to keep your power, and halt the manipulation.
5. Use Time to Your Advantage
In addition to unreasonable requests, the manipulator will often also expect an answer from you right away, to maximize their pressure and control over you in the situation. (Sales people call this “closing the deal.”) During these moments, instead of responding to the manipulator’s request right away, consider leveraging time to your advantage, and distancing yourself from his or her immediate influence. You can exercise leadership over the situation simply by saying:
“I’ll think about it.”
Consider how powerful these few words are from a customer to a salesperson, or from a romantic prospect to an eager pursuer, or from you to a manipulator. Take the time you need to evaluate the pros and cons of a situation, and consider whether you want to negotiate a more equitable arrangement, or if you’re better off by saying “no,” which leads us to our next point:
6. Know How To Say “No”―Diplomatically But Firmly
To be able to say “no” diplomatically but firmly is to practice the art of communication. Effectively articulated, it allows you to stand your ground while maintaining a workable relationship. Remember that your fundamental human rights include the right to set your own priorities, the right to say “no” without feeling guilty, and the right to choose your own happy and healthy life. (In my reference guide “How to Successfully Handle Passive-Aggressive People,” I review seven different ways you can say “no,” to help lower resistance and keep the peace.)
7. Confront Bullies, Safely
A psychological manipulator also becomes a bully when he or she intimidates or harms another person.
The most important thing to keep in mind about bullies is that they pick on those whom they perceive as weaker, so as long as you remain passive and compliant, you make yourself a target. But many bullies are also cowards on the inside. When their targets begin to show backbone and stand up for their rights, the bully will often back down. This is true in schoolyards, as well as in domestic and office environments.
On an empathetic note, studies show that many bullies are victims of violence themselves. This in no way excuses bullying behavior, but may help you consider the bully in a more equanimous light:
“When people don’t like themselves very much, they have to make up for it. The classic bully was actually a victim first.”—Tom Hiddleston
“Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.”—Paramhansa Yogananda
“I realized that bullying never has to do with you. It’s the bully who’s insecure.” —Shay Mitchell
When confronting bullies, be sure to place yourself in a position where you can safely protect yourself, whether it’s standing tall on your own, having other people present to witness and support, or keeping a paper trail of the bully’s inappropriate behavior. In cases of physical, verbal, or emotional abuse, consult with counseling, legal, law enforcement, or administrative professionals. It’s important to stand up to bullies, and you don’t have to do it alone.
8. Set Consequences
When a psychological manipulator insists on violating your boundaries, and won’t take “no” for an answer, deploy consequence.
The ability to identify and assert consequence(s) is one of the most important skills you can use to “stand down” a difficult person. Effectively articulated, consequences give pause to the manipulative individual, and compels her or him to shift from violation to respect.
When fear is what exists inside, fear will be what comes out. I would say “let’s make a deal: We will not share the details of historical/doctrinal problems that you don’t want to hear as long as you don’t push your ideas that we don’t want to hear.”
Great replies and suggestions. Thanks a bunch! bridget, it is great to hear from you again. Your family said: Quote:They told us they do not want to hear any of the reasons we left or why we have problems with the church/leaders, history.
It sounds like they set boundaries for you. It is ok to set boundaries with them.
I don’t like boundaries unless the other person goes on a personal attack. Or, they feel vulnerable or fearful.
With open communication, where people listen as well just talk, we, sometimes, get understanding, enlightenment or both.
It has to be hard. I wish you the best.
Quote:when my brother called to check on my sister, I unfortunately mentioned her coffee drinking.
Serious question, for your own person pondering, not necessarily for discussion here. I’m going to put it in quotes just to highlight it for easier consideration:
Quote:Why would you mention that? Seriously, you had to know how he would respond (and the grief it would and will continue to cause your sister), so why did you mention it? There has to be an underlying reason, and, for your own internal peace, you need to try to understand why you would do that – to your sister and to your brother.
I could guess, but it’s more important that you get to the heart of it on your own – with input from your husband, if that will help.
How to respond?
I like the suggestions in the previous comments, especially the point about them setting boundaries on what they are willing to hear. If he starts on a call to repentance or any other approach you don’t want to hear, depending on my mood, I might say something like one of the following:
Reasonable
Quote:“You know I don’t want to hear that. I love you and don’t want to feel this way toward you, so what else can we talk about that won’t upset either of us?”
Snarky
Quote:“Well, since you want to preach to me, it must be okay for me to preach to you – you know, the Golden Rule. So, which uncomfortable Church history issue would you like to discuss now – polygamy, the Priesthood ban, gay rights? I’m fine with any of them, so you choose.”
Obviously, I would go there only as a last resort, but I would go there if it got ridiculous.
Alot of food for thought. Ray, I thought about what you said in regards to my sister and telling my brother about the coffee. I realized there must have been an underlying resentment towards my sister and brother here. This brother has always bossed me around since I was a little girl. When he became an adult and high councilman it got worse. He never seemed to pick on my sister, just me. So subconsciously maybe, I wanted my sister to feel what it was like to get reprimaded from big brother and also for my brother to see little sister was not so perfect either just cause she is still in the church. Lack of maturity on my part and I have deeply regretted it. Try to realize that the anger is just the outward manifestation of a inner anxiety. It mask itself to cover the anxiety so as not to show insecurity and vulnerability.
Fighting(with him/herself) to keep assumptive world view and identity from being damaged(changed).
Most of it if not all of it playing out on a unconscious level.
Logic or facts will only entrench so try to resist if you get thoughts to.
Better to keep personal space in the face of dogma.
Also some mistakes like this can cost people there marriage.
Once policing starts it goes toward resentment which accumulates over time as the policing continues.
Try to be understanding of her now, what position she is in.
The first question you asked was why they are so self-righteous — some Mormons. i think it’s a biproduct of their highly developed sense of right and wrong, and their sense that they have the word of God on their side. There are also a lot of examples of “righteous people” calling sinners to repentance in the scriptures, so the scriptures legitimize the arrogance somewhat (even though there is ample evidence that truly righteous people are also humble and not overbearing). And some people get a real kick out of telling people what to do — sounds like your brother-in-law may have that personality characteristic. In terms of how to respond — I would let it go this time. But if he does it again, I would go for “what’s good for the goose, it what’s good for the gander”. Your sis and bro-law have set boundaries on what you can talk about regarding the church, you would like to draw a similar boundary. Be specific about calls to repentence, and other items. Ask that it be a topic you don’t address, but focus on other more positive topics for your relationship.
I would also not broach any church topics anymore — don’t even come close to it.
Likewise it is nice to hear from you. I agree that the LDS church tends to have self-righteous people. We do many things well but developing humility does not appear to be a major strength.
I remember on my mission a particular LDS family being warned by the bishop that unless they straighten up their kids would be taken from them in the eternities. I think they expected sympathy from us. I didn’t know any details but I thought at the time that the doctrine sounded solid. Pretty sad really – according to the 3 degrees of glory most families will be torn apart. Now I can’t imagine a lifetime of love being overridden by a ceremony that did or didn’t happen.
I agree about the boundaries. I might ask, “Can you love me and accept me as your sister even if I don’t attend or believe in the LDS church?” In response to a yes answer, “Good – that is my biggest hope and biggest need from you brother. I will not try to change you. There is so much that is good about you and what you do. I need you to not try to change me either. Perhaps (for now at least) it would be wise for us to give this religion talk a rest and just be good siblings to each other.”
I hope that this works out.
Even if it doesn’t remember that you are not broken. You got to where you are through a unique and hard fought journey that your brother will never understand. The person that you are is completely independent of your brother’s opinion of you. No. Correlation. Whatsoever.
Thanks Roy and everyone. Very helpful. Bridget
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