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July 22, 2014 at 2:41 am #209048
Anonymous
GuestI guess you could say my journey started back during Prop 8, I was living in California where the pressure to support this proposition no questions asked really started to wear on me. I wasn’t necessarily for our against anything, but to me Religion and Politics were supposed to be separate things, and I felt that being asked to support something I had not had time to really sort out on my own bothered me. I decided at that time to take a more blind approach to things, trusting that I would understand some day why God would want me to support something political, and not fully understanding how I felt about the issue itself, that of legalizing gay marriage. To this day it is still something I am torn about to be honest. I was raised in the church, born and bred, so I feel like a lot of what I was raised with is still a part of me. I feel like a am really being split down the seams, with one foot wanting to stay firmly planted in what I know and really have loved, and the other, more rational side of me, fighting to get out. The song about being carefully taught from the musical “South Pacific” keeps coming to mind when I think about how I have had my religion practically sewn into every fiber of my being. Let me give you some more background. I am a 20-something, full-time president of a small company and have two beautiful children. My husband and I were married in the temple. I am so very lucky because he and I have been on the same page this entire journey, and have really been able to lean on each other for support. My job allows me to work from home, which has been nice, but I still have a full time babysitter to help me out during the day, because I typically work at least 10 hour days. My husband works as well, but only plans to work for 10 years, at which point I will take over as full time provider and grow my business. I have always been a very strong and capable woman, independent and free thinking. I have always been politically liberal and I guess a classic bleeding heart. My political views err on the socialist side, but I always told people I was a “consecrationalist.” That is my religious side coming through as I always felt I could justify a religious based socialism. I studied political science and journalism in college, a bad combination for religion I suppose as I was really taught in Journalism to question everything and seek the Truth (with a capital “T”).
I hardly even know how to continue now, I am sure everyone here has experienced something similar to my earth-shattering revelations. I suppose it would be best to say that I wish with all of my heart that certain principals of the church are True. I find several of our teachings particularly beautiful, especially eternal families and the idea that there is a heaven for everyone here on earth. I can hardly bare to think about a world without my children, and it breaks my heart thinking that there may be an end to our time together. I hold firm to experiences in my life that we do have a loving God who watches over us, and still feel that this is something I can believe in.
Our (my husband and I) questions have arisen completely from church history problems and feeling that we have been lied to. My husband and I were very skeptical in our research and tried to make sure all of our sources had a firm foundation in church sources. We particularly struggle with the following:
1. Polygamy and Polygny- I am sure we are not the only ones. I, like many, had no idea Joseph had plural wives, some married to other men. All of the arguments of justifying polygamy fall down. All of the arguments then for eradicating it fall down, other than of course, the church submitting to the will of the government and cloaking it in “revelation.” It is hard to rationally justify any of the events surrounding this particular piece of church history.
2. The churches changing stance on so many issues really concerns us. It seems to us that God would be more rational and consistent than what we see in “his” church. We are taught that God is unchanging and yet the church is changing all the time.
3. We are very bothered by the churches current investments, its lack of disclosure of tithe monies, etc. We feel we would be better off using that 10 percent in charitable ways of our choosing, ensuring that the money is spent in worthwhile and not mammon ways.
4. We feel that the Word of Wisdom was not intended to have certain principals be more valuable than others. It bothers us that such an emphasis is placed on drinking and not on the other principals of eating too much meat, etc. Even though we are beginning to not believe in it as revelation at all, we still feel that the hypocrisy of certain principals and weighing certain things as evil was not justified. We also feel that this and other church principals had led us to simply do unnecessary things instead of focusing on living charitable lives. It seemed we had so much of a check-list of what it was to be a good person that we were actually so consumed in checking things off we never had the time to actually be good people.
I could go on and on, but I better stop there at serious introductions. Some more light hearted things about me/my husband (I refer a lot to him and I in the “we or us” sense):
1. I Love to read, and I read a variety of things, but some of my more recent favorite reads have been by Patrick Rothfuss and Carla Kelley.
2. We love to Travel, and want to see the world. Our dream vacation is New Zealand.
3. I love to eat, and try new foods. We are pretty daring in what we try and love going to new restaurants. We probably spend most of our money on food and travel.
4. I once lit a field on fire on accident, almost just like Thomas S. Monson’s story, so I always had a kind of kinship with him thinking to myself, “if he did it, perhaps I am not such a dummy!”
Thanks, really looking forward to developing some relationships here. We are still very in the closet about the way we feel and are sorting out our feelings, so it will be nice to have some comrades.
July 22, 2014 at 3:14 am #288104Anonymous
GuestWelcome. My questions are more doctrine based than yours, but the feelings of deception are the same. I don’t know that you will find answers to your questions here, but it’s a great place to talk to others who have been where you are. I hope you find the peace you seek and I hope I can learn from interacting with you. July 22, 2014 at 4:41 am #288105Anonymous
GuestWelcome to the forum! I hope we can help each other find more peace as we journey on. Personally, I’m not very political. I guess I’m a moderate. I voted Republican when I was young, because that’s how my parents voted and I didn’t know any better. Lately I’ve been voting libertarian or independent, because I think the two-party (effectively one-party at times) system is a travesty and an affront to free, honest, and intelligent people everywhere. That’s the one political fight I care about. 
A few of your comments did give me some thinks.
MomofTwo wrote:2. The churches changing stance on so many issues really concerns us. It seems to us that God would be more rational and consistent than what we see in “his” church. We are taught that God is unchanging and yet the church is changing all the time.
This is an interesting issue, because we have conflicting teachings. God is unchangeable, yet we also believe in continuing revelation. So there’s some tension there, and different ways to view it. Maybe God is unchanging, and what he has already revealed will never change—we just get new stuff added to it. In that case, some of the changing doctrine of the church is suspect. But you’d also think God and the gospel ought to be flexible enough to adapt to changing times. And we’ve had some pretty obvious changes in doctrine—the Law of Moses being a very clear example from scripture, as well as the change from Levites being the only priesthood holders. Do those changes mean God lied or that people were being misled? How is that similar to polygamy or race and the priesthood? Or maybe God is unchanging, but it’s a lot harder to understand God’s intent than we tend to think. Maybe it’s even harder, or at least less straightforward, for prophets than we tend to think. Lots of interesting possibilities here.MomofTwo wrote:1. I Love to read, and I read a variety of things, but some of my more recent favorite reads have been by Patrick Rothfuss and Carla Kelley.
Hooray for Patrick Rothfuss! I love his books. The man is a storytelling genius. I had never heard of Carla Kelley before. Is her writing similar at all to Georgette Heyer?July 22, 2014 at 12:25 pm #288106Anonymous
GuestDaeruin wrote:MomofTwo wrote:2. The churches changing stance on so many issues really concerns us. It seems to us that God would be more rational and consistent than what we see in “his” church. We are taught that God is unchanging and yet the church is changing all the time.
This is an interesting issue, because we have conflicting teachings. God is unchangeable, yet we also believe in continuing revelation. So there’s some tension there, and different ways to view it. Maybe God is unchanging, and what he has already revealed will never change—we just get new stuff added to it. In that case, some of the changing doctrine of the church is suspect. But you’d also think God and the gospel ought to be flexible enough to adapt to changing times. And we’ve had some pretty obvious changes in doctrine—the Law of Moses being a very clear example from scripture, as well as the change from Levites being the only priesthood holders. Do those changes mean God lied or that people were being misled? How is that similar to polygamy or race and the priesthood? Or maybe God is unchanging, but it’s a lot harder to understand God’s intent than we tend to think. Maybe it’s even harder, or at least less straightforward, for prophets than we tend to think. Lots of interesting possibilities here.The simplest explanation… receiving revelation is more of an art than a science.
The complex explanation is complex.
A painter’s very first painting usually isn’t that good… unless you get caught up in art critic one upmanship, then the sky is the limit.
Learning to paint takes lots of practice. I suppose the more orthodox answer that also jives with reality is that receiving revelation is just like any other human endeavor, it requires practice. Practice implies making lots of mistakes along the way. The unorthodox answer… we are art critics and we just found out that the painting we’ve been going on and on about was revealed to be the work of a toddler/monkey/elephant.
😆 Bad analogy but it serves in the moment. I’m practicing making analogies and I’ll be making lots mistakes along the way.
Some of my issues were rooted in church history as well. Borrowing from the painting analogy:
1) After discovering the painting wasn’t painted by an arteest I was initially upset by the deception.
2) The fact that I had believed wholeheartedly in the deception shattered my confidence in my ability to critique art. If I was wrong about this painting what other paintings am I wrong about?
3) Perhaps even more maddening than feeling deceived, the artwork continued to be hung in the gallery and presented as the work of a master artist. Shouldn’t that painting come down?!?!
Then it became the fun process of:
4) Can I ever trust myself again when looking for insights from artistic works?
5) Ok, so the painting was done by a monkey… but did it still speak to me on some level?
6) Does what the painting communicate to me trump the imperfections in the painting’s origin?
7) Can I trust the guy that brought the painting to the museum and passed it off as the work of a master artist? What if he brings a painting in next week? How will I view that painting? On what level will I allow the painting to “speak” to me as an art critic?
Re-reading this post
:crazy: I’ll shut up now and get to the point:Welcome to staylds… some of us ramble.
:angel: July 22, 2014 at 1:28 pm #288107Anonymous
GuestIt’s good to have you here, MomofTwo! I am so happy to hear that you and your husband are on the same page! I envy you in that regard. my list of “problems” with the church is similar to yours and just keeps growing. Many here have reconciled their lists to the point that they are able to stay in the church and find a niche for themselves where they can be comfortable. I am not anywhere near that point yet (and may never be). However, StayLDS has helped me not feel so lonely, and that means a lot to me. I hope you will find these boards as valuable as I have. Welcome! By the way, Richard Rothfuss has been on my list of authors to read for a while. You and Daeruin have convinced me to bump him up higher on the list
July 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm #288108Anonymous
GuestMomofTwo wrote:We also feel that this and other church principals had led us to simply do unnecessary things instead of focusing on living charitable lives. It seemed we had so much of a check-list of what it was to be a good person that we were actually so consumed in checking things off we never had the time to actually be good people.
This resonated with me. I said the same thing to my wife the other day. And she actually agreed with me. Also,your feeling of being lied to about our history. In my case, I learned about Mountain Meadows Massacre on the front step of a non-members’ house. Go all the way through several years of conversion, the 6 discussions, the missionary training center, and never heard a peep about that one. My lack of knowledge only confirmed to the non-member that I’d been “brainwashed”, even though I don’t consider what happened to me “brainwashing”. I don’t infer such nefarious motives on the church leaders, but I do feel more disclosure would have been nice when I was looking into the church.
July 22, 2014 at 4:05 pm #288109Anonymous
GuestWelcome! July 22, 2014 at 4:15 pm #288110Anonymous
GuestDaeruin wrote:I had never heard of Carla Kelley before. Is her writing similar at all to Georgette Heyer?
Ha ha she is nothing like that, her books are actually sold at Deseret Book, she is more of a romantic writer. I am a sucker for a good period piece, ha ha I really do love to read a diversity of stuff. But I am right there with you, Rothfuss is simply amazing, I am going to have a very long year waiting for book 3, although the book on Arie coming out could be a great appetizer!
July 22, 2014 at 4:23 pm #288111Anonymous
GuestSilentDawning wrote:MomofTwo wrote:My lack of knowledge only confirmed to the non-member that I’d been “brainwashed”, even though I don’t consider what happened to me “brainwashing”. I don’t infer such nefarious motives on the church leaders, but I do feel more disclosure would have been nice when I was looking into the church.
I spent a lot of time in other states during my youth, and interacting with people very much against the church. In our hometown near Seattle there was a very large denomination that had a Sunday School class all about Mormons and what to ask us. I am surprised I did not encounter hard questions like this sooner that would have piqued my interest in other ideas at an earlier age. But that said, if I had, I wonder how I would have reacted. I feel that the church shoots itself in the foot by keeping these things so secretive, it would be better to educate us about our history so we are prepared to handle these kinds of concerns as they arise, rather than having to hear them from a negative source.
July 22, 2014 at 6:58 pm #288112Anonymous
GuestWelcome! While I didn’t live in California during Prop 8, the churches stance on gay marriage is really what lead me to having a faith crisis in general. That started my questioning the direction the church was going. Fine bunch of folks on here and I hope you and your family find what you’re looking for. July 23, 2014 at 4:39 am #288113Anonymous
GuestMomofTwo wrote:I feel that the church shoots itself in the foot by keeping these things so secretive, it would be better to educate us about our history so we are prepared to handle these kinds of concerns as they arise, rather than having to hear them from a negative source.
The church does seem to be trying harder at this. Have you seen the recent essays being published on LDS.org yet? They cover many of the troubling historical issues that have traditionally been avoided. Maybe not to a degree that’s helpful for those of us who have crashed here on StayLDS, but hopefully to a degree that will help generally faithful members who are encountering the information for the first time in the safe context of the church’s official site.July 23, 2014 at 8:54 pm #288114Anonymous
GuestI have read the essays, I guess my concern though is unless you are actually seeking out the information, I doubt it will be taught or widely known in the standard church curriculum. July 23, 2014 at 9:11 pm #288115Anonymous
GuestI wouldn’t be too sure of that. Many things need to be published before they can be included in formal instruction materials, and it will take a while to publish enough to warrant a curricular revision of Church History instruction. -
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