In and Out and In and Out, etc.

I said it in the other thread (although I do appreciate that this one is much more detailed – is it the one you lost?): Take it slow, don’t dump all at once, focus on what you do believe.

There are many people here who can relate to your feelings and believe what you believe. Please share with us and let us share with you.

Thank you to you both. I do not mind if you keep both posts up. I will take your advice into consideration.

3. Word of Wisdom. I have been interested in nutrition for years, and it is very interesting to me that God would say nothing about sugar, and have no problem with members consuming large amounts of sugar, as well as things like diet coke. However we are told we can’t drink green tea, with numerous medicinal and nutritional benefits. This is just one example. I do not drink or smoke, and I eat very healthy. Since I have had a cup of green tea every morning, my hormones have started being more balanced, my skin has gotten clearer, I have reduced PMS, increased concentration, and my blood sugar levels are better. I have prayed about it and felt it was OK for me to do so, but I am not sure how well this would be received from leaders.

Sounds like drinking green tea is wise in your case. Ultimately it’s between you and the lord. Not wanting to sound too combative but nuts to some leader. The wisdom is in developing self governance and it sounds like you’re already there.

10. Losing a child while being inactive and being blamed for it because I wasn’t going to church.

11. Losing our home, and being blamed for it because we were not going to church.

12. Knowing our parents rejoice at our misfortune because in their minds, it is humbling us to bring us back to the church.

I’m sorry to hear you have gone through this. That’s an aspect of church culture that truly eludes me. Often people will explicitly say that “bad things happen to good people” but then justify some misfortunes as being the result of sin.

14. Hearing that children “choose” to be baptized. There is very little that they know about the church when they make the “choice” at a very young age, and they feel so good that their parents and everyone around them are so happy at their “choice.” These things are drilled in their heads from the moment they are born. It isn’t about helping our kids find truth by examining anything rationally. My youngest is turning 8 in a few months. I feel a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach just knowing I can’t expect him to be baptized and drill it into his head, just to make our parents proud as well as get the enormous approval from fellow church members that just expect him to do it. No pressure at all, right?

I’m starting to see baptism at 8 in a new light. In my more orthodox days I accepted 8 as the age of accountability, now I recognize that an 8 year old can’t truly commit to all the implicit demands of baptism and membership to the church. It just occurs to me though, what if 8 is old enough to be accountable and the true problem is all the extraneous demands that we’ve attached to the ordinance of baptism? To rephrase in case my meaning is unclear: perhaps the baptismal covenant is limited to what an 8 year old is capable of promising but as adults we have imagined it to mean so much more. Viewing it that way would certainly make the yolk lighter. In that context the endowment would serve to be the ordinance were all those other things are promised and at an age that people are capable of making those promises.

Also, what if I am wrong? Is there something I’m missing? The last thing I want to do is disappoint God. I am not out to rebel. I am trying to seek for truth and follow my conscience? Why would he give me one but expect me to dismiss it?

If you have those concerns it tells me that your heart is in the right place. IMO that’s all god requires, that we do our best working with what we’ve got.

I would start one or two issues at a time and work through them through discussion here, while maintaining as much activity in the church as you can.

Of all the things that bother you about the church, which two are at the top of your list, and provide the biggest stumbling block to feeling at peace within the church?

1. Women’s assigned “roles” and gender inequality. I feel so alone in this issue. This is where I have really seen the ugly come out in the church. Very sad.

2. Following a Priesthood leader is more important than your personal revelation and conscience. There is always the “middle man,” especially for me as a woman. So many channels to go through to get to God, and you never know what answer you are going to get based off of that particular person and their life experience and set beliefs. It’s not that we can’t have personal prayers, but our answers must align with the current leadership, and this doesn’t always happen for me. Heaven forbid I speak up or I might get my recommend taken away, etc. I just feel like I am a square peg trying to fit in a round hole sometimes.

1. Women’s assigned “roles” and gender inequality. I feel so alone in this issue. This is where I have really seen the ugly come out in the church. Very sad.

I don’t really have an answer to this one. It’s not an issue that bothers my wife, and for some reason, isn’t one of my hot buttons — even though I’m supportive of gender equality in general. I guess I haven’t had the experience of the uglies you have alluded to. Hawkgrrl would be great to answer this one.

2. Following a Priesthood leader is more important than your personal revelation and conscience. There is always the “middle man,” especially for me as a woman. So many channels to go through to get to God, and you never know what answer you are going to get based off of that particular person and their life experience and set beliefs. It’s not that we can’t have personal prayers, but our answers must align with the current leadership, and this doesn’t always happen for me. Heaven forbid I speak up or I might get my recommend taken away, etc. I just feel like I am a square peg trying to fit in a round hole sometimes.

For this one — I like a statement Brian Johnson made (he’s a moderator here on StayLDS). He said, “as soon as you get on your own clock, the happier you will be”. This means elevating your own conscience to the highest level as the way to peace in the church. It doesn’t mean you ignore priesthood leaders, but it means you listen to them, and then run it through your own life experience and judgment. Out comes what is best for you.

Take this with what Dallin H. Oak(e)s said. He also indicated that all the GA’s can teach are general principles. He said that If any of us feel we have an exception, we need to work it out with the Lord. That statement is liberating because it means we DO have license to believe things that conflict with what the priesthood line says is right for us personally. I believe we can’t go about teaching that certain fundamental doctrines are wrong, but we certainly have room to decide for ourselves the intensity of our commitment on certain issues. We can do the same thing, silently or in our close circle of friends, on fundamental doctrinal issues. And there is a lot of speculation and unknowns in the larger gospel (the scriptures) etcetera, which leaves room for personal interpretation.

Also, I personally no longer believe I need the priesthood leaders to get to God on a personal, spiritual level. We all have the ability to pray directly to him, and to talk to him. When priesthood leaders visit my home (as our SP did recently) I’m astounded at how little discernment they have about my true issues, and their inability to engender the kind of trust I need in order to be truly honest. Truly honest so they can give advice or take steps to help me feel the commitment they want from me. They are simply men, given position power in our church. Their weakness as men to help me builds my confidence that what matters the most is what I personally think about the issues – not what they think.

Also, consider listening to the podcast on local leaders, and their good and ill influence. Old-Timer (moderator) is on it. The teacher, Jared makes the point that Ethics, at times, involves saying no to people in authority, while Obedience means saying “yes” to them. A person can be obedient, and unethical at the same time — and it beehoves each person to put on their own Ethics Hat and run everything they hear from priesthood leaders through their own sense of right and wrong. I would rather be ethical first, and obedient second. Not the other way around.

(http://www.mormonsundayschool.org/104-2 … udy-notes/)

Don’t know if that helps, but I think if you focus on your own relationship with God, you will see there is not the overwhelming need for the priesthood leaders to be your middle men. That has been my experience.

Welcome RS14,

The advice shared so far has been great. For my part I would like to zero in on one particular aspect.

I probably sound nuts, don’t I? Let’s just say that I went back the last time after my baby died. I was suffering PTSD. I felt like such a failure. I believed that I let God down, therefore He was humbling me. The church was all I knew. No other church that I had gone to could promise me that I would raise my baby in the millennium. I desperately wanted him back. The alcohol got dumped down the drain. The coffeemaker got thrown in the trash. I jumped head first into the church, never thinking I would ever leave again. I had instant friends, and support. For a while, I could shelf everything that bothered me. Let’s just say that five years later, I am in a much healthier place. I have gone back to school, and am an honor student.

In my own story our third child was stillborn 3 days before delivery. I can certainly sympathize with feeling crazy and having wild life swings. When this happened I was the WML and DW was the PP. One of my early reactions was to increase my service to others because I felt an increase in “charity” was the only way that I could be sure to get to heaven to help raise my daughter. There were some awkward scenarios were I “helped” people against their wishes (nothing illegal – more like shoveling snow after being told not to bother).

I collected all the quotes that I could from church leaders about death and the salvation of little children in order to help provide comfort for my wife that had slid into a deep depression. It was there that I found that there is no assurance whatsoever about stillborn children. No sealing ordinances are performed for them. We do not know if they count as living beings to qualify for a resurrection.

I believe that this took all the vitality out of my works based salvation. I could wear myself out with doing and at the end of the day I would have no promises of a reunion with the daughter that we lost. Within six months we had stopped attending the LDS ward and had begun attending a Baptist church. It was there that I was able to truly feel a different kind of charity. It was there that I was able to find forgiveness for failing in my duty to protect my daughter. It was there that I was able to feel God’s love around me even though I will never be enough to provide everything for those that depend on me. My efforts to provide and protect are so limited (some by forces outside my control and some by my own personal limitations) but God loves and accepts me anyway.

I believe that God loves my daughter in the same way. God doesn’t care that she was never tested. God doesn’t care that she never took a breath (something that according to LDS practice would have given her the ability to have temple ceremonies performed in her behalf). God loves her as I love her – with all of my being. I will leave her fate and my own in His hands – with or without temple ceremonies.

We moved about a year later and took advantage of the change of scenery to return to the LDS church. Some days are better than others. Often I seem to have more in common with the 4 yr. old primary kids that I team teach with my wife (my goal for them is to have a positive church experience. Period.) than the guys in EQ. My life is more stable than it was in the crisis stage of my experience but it will never be the same as before. I am forever changed and pushing forward.

I hope something from my story is helpful to you in your journey. StayLDS is a good place to find support from people that are walking a similar road.

Once again – you are welcome here!

Hi Roy.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It brought back memories of being a desperate mother wanting to know her son was OK. I find it interesting that we both went to baptist congregations after this experience. The one I attended for a short time was non-denominational. I do not think it was a coincidence that we attended that particular church either. The pastor and his wife had lost babies multiple times, and the sermons he gave were so powerful and just what we needed to hear. There was a definite “spirit” there of love and it gave us a sense of empowerment unlike anything we had experienced in an LDS ward. Plus the music was cool, and they had complimentary Starbucks. Interestingly enough, it was so unfamiliar to us, that when he started talking about paying tithing, my husband and I looked at each other and just thought if we were going to be paying tithing again, it would be to the Mormon church, because at least there was the promises that the LDS church brings of eternal families, etc. As nice as it was, it just didn’t feel like home, because it was not what we were used to. My question to you is do you tend to embrace the common Christian view of salvation by grace as opposed to works?

SunbeltRed,

I appreciate your honesty in your comment. Believe it or not, most of the time I feel blank. No answers one way or the other. My big “revelations” can be counted on one hand, and they were major life changing events, even though I have wondered why God picked those particular events, because I have had other life changing events where it seemed God left me to deal on my own. I wonder how many members do not actually want to admit that they haven’t had a “witness” of the church’s validity, etc. If I can be honest, going back to church felt like home, but it was what I was used to. It was what I was raised in. I took that feeling to mean that this is where I am supposed to be. I took a feeling and made it into a truth. Now that I am really asking God and seeking for truth, I do not get a good feeling or a bad feeling. I get nothing. Maybe it isn’t important, or God knows I am headed in the right direction in my search for truth, so He/She does not interfere, but perhaps trusts me. I don’t know…