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I thought this article at By Common Consent was interesting: http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/07/23/the-challenge-of-hastening-the-work-in-the-uk/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/07/23/the-challenge-of-hastening-the-work-in-the-uk/ The author makes the point that even with the large increase of missionaries the number of converts is far less than expected in the UK, and argues that a large portion of the older leadership has often not been replaced by younger members as their are larger rates of attrition among younger members.
This is a small sample size (the UK). From what I have been able to gather, this seems like a trend in Europe, U.S. than perhaps other growing areas of the world. But I don’t have any solid data on anything, just going off anecdotal stories and from conversations with friends.
It also ties into something I have been thinking a lot about as well: spiritual innovation. In my professional life I have been a part of an innovation team at a large company working through ways to increase innovation. It didn’t go very well. The bureaucracy of the organization is stifling and eventually people get discouraged to try anything radically different. Innovation happens, but at a much slower pace, and there is always a fear that someone else out their will come up with something that we should have, and the other organization will be a lot more nimble and quick.
I read the article and it made me sad to think about the potential future of the LDS Church. Even though I personally walk purely in faith, I have a great love for the LDS Church. I don’t want to see its role or influence diminish. I would like it become bigger (which to me means opening the tent a lot wider) and helping to influence the world for good. So in my mind, as a church, we need to innovate, which means we need to do some tinkering and experimentation. Not everything will work (that is a fundamental truth of innovation) but progression comes through moving forward, attempting things, learning from mistakes, and moving forward.
(I have been thinking about innovation in spiritual terms because we see things through our own context, and my faith crisis to me has led to an increase in spiritual innovation. Trying things, ideas, rituals to find out what works for me.)
I have some thoughts about ways to widen the tent but would be interested in others thoughts about the article, if others think there are any actual issue with church growth that need to be addressed, and others thought and suggestions:
Here are a few of mine:
1) I have a SIL who is Jewish. She is often a cultural Jew, but she moved to the states with my brother and instantly found a community, a job at the JCC, and instant group of friends and a “synagogue” family.
Why doesn’t the LDS church have community centers? Day care, pool, classes, schools, etc.? In my mind this would be a fantastic way to create ties within the larger community and advocate values in a non-threatening way. Why we haven’t done this baffles me. I think it would inspire local members to interact with other people, supply jobs to needy members of the congregation, and increase influence.
2) Word of Wisdom: moderation in all things. I do not drink alcohol or coffee (I drink lots of energy drinks which for some reason doesn’t violate the WofW in a literal sense, but it can’t be much better than coffee). Loosen up the word of wisdom. I don’t know how a change like this would ever happen, but I know many of my neighbors would never even consider joining our church because of that component alone. I also have no idea what a policy change like this would do to the general population of the church (probably cause a lot of freaking out and some who might take that to mean open season on the alcohol section of the grocery store). But, it would widen the tent.
3) Ability to experiment with Unorthodox worship ( 1hour or 2 hour sacrament, meetings mid-week, primary during Sacrament meeting…)
Am interested to hear from others…
I agree with your ideas, SBRed. I’m not actually sure we can reach the conclusion reached in the article with the data presented (overall membership in England is up, for instance), but that doesn’t mean it deserves no attention. I think the church does provide a sense of community to an extent, and I do think that when people move to a new area there is at least some prospect of being able to relatively quickly have a group of people you know and who are able to help you know where the market is, etc. That said, there are some wards that are not especially welcoming, open, or friendly – the good news is they seem to be relatively scarce (although I once lived in one). I have noticed, especially after having been away, that there has been a decrease in friendly, fun activities (at least where I live). We used to have fairly frequent ward dinners, now replaced by “linger longer” events monthly. (I’m not a fan of linger longer on multiple levels, not the least of which is that I think 3 hours is plenty of lingering already). We now have the Christmas party, the RS birthday dinner, and an occasional “bring a friend” activity (there’s one this week, featuring a “dutch oven cook off” which seems to be having trouble attracting participants).
I used to work at a private Jewish school, and I echo your sentiments about the Jewish people. There were very conservative orthodox Jews there and there were Jews who were about as liberal as one could be (ate bacon & shrimp, etc.) and never attended any service or celebrated any holiday – but they were all treated equally because they were all Jews. Yes, there was some judgmentalism on the part of some of the more orthodox, but when push came to shove, a Jew was a Jew.
1. I think we don’t have community centers because they’re expensive to run, plain and simple. It’d be a great idea, though. I bet if we had them they’d only exist in the Corridor and perhaps some cities with fairly large LDS populations like Washington.
2. I totally agree. I would support an organization like OW if it’s focus was the WoW. I really do think the prophets should pray about this and ask for an update (and I think Brigham Young was wrong about coffee and tea).
3. I’d love to have a two hour block, and I’ve mentioned this on the forums before. I think the problem there is sacred cows, the brethren don’t want to cut SS or RS (I think SS and RS/PH are fairly redundant, and RS/PH could be much more focused on their missions if they were outside the block).
I’d add to your list that I think the church would do well to be more open and friendly with other churches. In this part of the country most communities have something like a council of churches where the various ministers meet together, perhaps monthly, and discuss how to share their resources to really help people. It seems to work here. Granted the LDS church is not generally invited – but we don’t ask to be part of it, either.
This is a very complex subject, it’s even difficult to know where to begin. It is a small sample size and that aspect always leaves me with my doubts. Are the things that I find dissatisfying about the church limited to my perspective (get over it) or are they shared by a wider audience (address it)?
Even the number of resignations doesn’t tell me much. Who is resigning, active members or people that have been inactive for many years that are resigning because the process is now more visible than it was in the past? The raw number of resignations alone doesn’t tell the full story. A reduction in the number of units may be an good indicator, at least geographically.
I think you’re on to something with innovation. I think HtW and lowering the age requirement for serving a mission were put forth as innovate ideas. Maybe those things were really more of the same old same old, where real innovation requires an “outside the box” approach, but the organization of the church really isn’t set up for that. Live by the correlation, die by the correlation.
1) I could see this working in Utah and other areas that have a strong Mormon community.
2) WoW is one of those complex issues. Any change would take time… think generations. People still occasionally preach that caffeinated soda is against the WoW and to my knowledge that’s never been a part of the WoW. I imagine an even more pronounced division among the saints if coffee was removed. There would be that “extra righteous” group of non-coffee drinkers secretly shaming people.
:angel: Rather than change the WoW perhaps the way forward would be to drop it from the temple recommend requirements.3) Primary during sacrament. I like that idea. It might keep children that are thoroughly bored during sacrament more engaged in their worship if they were in a different meeting more tailored for their needs. I guess they would need to have their own sacrament as well for all the kids over 8 and the primary workers. Plus we’d have to get better about rotating people out of teaching primary.
I don’t have a suggestion because I don’t know the answers but one observation:
I think SS and PH/RS often end up being boring because there’s a learned behavior to steer everything back to the correlated material. If you have a lesson on tithing (or pick any principle) more often than not you already know everything you are going to hear before the meeting even starts, right down to the scriptures used and the personal anecdotes shared. If there is a discussion and that discussion starts to get interesting I’ve often seen members of the class get vocal in returning the conversation to “Sunday school answers” (or the same talking points that you predicted would be brought up before the meeting began). BTW, all of this goes back to my previous comment. I don’t know if it’s just me or if many people are thinking this and just don’t want to say anything out loud about it (like me).
A fix? I don’t remember the details or where I saw it but I think there was a book? that was aimed at addressing the difficult questions in life, it was LDS specific. It would be nice to break from the correlated material and get some discussion going on how the gospel addresses these questions… which I think was the intent of the book. Hopefully someone knows what I’m talking about and can help me out with my memory.
There’s another issue I have with lessons in church. Rather than derail this thread (further) I’ll likely go off and create a thread on it.
DarkJedi wrote:I 2. I totally agree. I would support an organization like OW if it’s focus was the WoW. I really do think the prophets should pray about this and ask for an update (and I think Brigham Young was wrong about coffee and tea).
Yes, I agree with this. Let’s start CWOW (Change the Word of Wisdom) Instead of marching on Temple Square during Priesthood session, we could offer hot coffee to those standing in line during the Oct GC. But the perception would be a problem. OW were viewed at “Feminists”, we would be known as “drunkards”
At least once a week I hear a reference to “sifting of the wheat from the tares” as if driving people away is a sign of success. I don’t have statistics to back it up, but I believe that it will become harder and harder to keep younger generations involved in the LDS church. Innovation will be required at some point. I think about the Masons, which I realize isn’t technically a religion, but I believe the Masons have an average age in the 70s. I also think about the Quakers, although they are certainly good people. There is so much that we do that is nowhere to be found in the scriptures and which I’m pretty sure Heavenly Father doesn’t really care about. How long we go to church, some implications of garments, parts of the WoW, what we consider “modesty”, sexual practices to some extent. I believe these will have to continue to be tweaked (or discarded in some instances) for the church to remain relevant.
There is so much the LDS has to offer… I hope we can grow and innovate.
I read the comments to the article in the OP. Fascinating. Lot’s of interesting perspectives in the comments. Sheldon wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I 2. I totally agree. I would support an organization like OW if it’s focus was the WoW. I really do think the prophets should pray about this and ask for an update (and I think Brigham Young was wrong about coffee and tea).
Yes, I agree with this. Let’s start CWOW (Change the Word of Wisdom) Instead of marching on Temple Square during Priesthood session, we could offer hot coffee to those standing in line during the Oct GC. But the perception would be a problem. OW were viewed at “Feminists”, we would be known as “drunkards”
I’d don’t know if I’d protest at GC, but I might put a profile on the site.
Roadrunner wrote:At least once a week I hear a reference to “sifting of the wheat from the tares” as if driving people away is a sign of success.
That it an interesting point, and I hear it too, especially in relation to those who have become inactive or left altogether. At the same time, if it is younger people who are leaving/not active, aren’t they the generals in heaven, the chosen generation, and all that? How can those who have been saved for right now be the tares?
It’s easy to forget that we are in a time of widespread disassociation from formal religions – and that the LDS Church actually is doing reasonably well compared to most other denominations. That certainly doesn’t mean all is well in Zion (nowhere close), but this is an extremely complex, world-wide issue right now. It reminds me a lot of the description of Alma, Jr.’s generation in the Book of Mormon.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree with your ideas, SBRed. I’m not actually sure we can reach the conclusion reached in the article with the data presented (overall membership in England is up, for instance), but that doesn’t mean it deserves no attention.
1. I think we don’t have community centers because they’re expensive to run, plain and simple. It’d be a great idea, though. I bet if we had them they’d only exist in the Corridor and perhaps some cities with fairly large LDS populations like Washington.
I’d add to your list that I think the church would do well to be more open and friendly with other churches. In this part of the country most communities have something like a council of churches where the various ministers meet together, perhaps monthly, and discuss how to share their resources to really help people. It seems to work here. Granted the LDS church is not generally invited – but we don’t ask to be part of it, either.
DJ,
1) Agreed that is probably why, and would possibly only work in areas with lots of members, but its worth experimenting with. I know where we live lots of families do pre-school and all the best pre-schools are at the local churches. Our son goes to pre-school at the local baptist church
🙂 . Just seems like a no-brainer to try this out in a few places.nibbler wrote:I read the comments to the article in the OP. Fascinating. Lot’s of interesting perspectives in the comments.
Yes. The comments were extremely interesting. That’s what got me really thinking about it.
Roadrunner wrote:At least once a week I hear a reference to “sifting of the wheat from the tares” as if driving people away is a sign of success. I don’t have statistics to back it up, but I believe that it will become harder and harder to keep younger generations involved in the LDS church.
There is so much the LDS has to offer… I hope we can grow and innovate.
Agreed Roadrunner. I can also understand why as a culture we might hunker down, and honestly I don’t have any good data and the article references one area of the world. It may be that my present perspective is clouding the issue and I’m not seeing it clearly. But I have many friends my age (mid thirties) in my ward and stake who are similar to me (it varies but the general idea is we need to open up more and we do many things that are just Utah culture centric.)
I guess that’s a way of saying I have no idea what the cause and effects are and how to help.
Old-Timer wrote:It’s easy to forget that we are in a time of widespread disassociation from formal religions – and that the LDS Church actually is doing reasonably well compared to most other denominations.
That certainly doesn’t mean all is well in Zion (nowhere close), but this is an extremely complex, world-wide issue right now. It reminds me a lot of the description of Alma, Jr.’s generation in the Book of Mormon.
Ray, I think this is part of the crux and why I don’t have a good feel for where things are or where they will go. Lots of other religions are struggling as well. There is a good case the pendulum will swing in the other direction (think religion in the early 20th century in England) but who knows when that will be and what the fall out will be in the LDS church in the meantime.
I think all 3 of your ideas would propell the church forward. My number 4. Do away with garments.
5. APOLIGIZE for past mistakes and simply admit that prophets and church leaders make mistakes rather than making excuses and doing mental gymnastics….
Oh wait…Uchtdorf already did that. … but the membership will not listen to their own prophets.
6. Embrace social progression and causes…. rather than being 40 years behind.
7. Uniquivically renounce and do away with the term and teaching of “the one and only true church. “
8. Allow civil marriages the day or week prior to temple sealings.
9. Be transparent about finances and where the members tithing is being spent.
10. Come clean and start being honest about church history.
I guess 2 out 10 ain’t….. well…. actually it demonstrates just how much trouble the church is in with gen X… and beyond….
Brothers…I know you’re reading this….
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
I think for many folk constant talk about authority sounds unhealthy and even sinister the LDS has traditionally poached many members from other churches which are themselves in decline
Also change General Conference looks like the Soviet politburo
Re #6 good not to follow every passing trend but bad to be so far behind Community centers: I’ve found in my most recent ward, that the people are their own community centers. Lots of pre-school co-ops and homeschooling parents who have banded together. We have a facebook page that is used for swapping stuff, organizing holiday parties, people will even post that they are going to the lake and invite anyone interested along, things like that. I don’t think a physical community center is necessarily required to make more of a community. This is true in any group though, people have to take it upon themselves to reach out. Quote:4. Do away with garments.
Amen.Quote:8. Allow civil marriages the day or week prior to temple sealings.
This. So much. I had a civil marriage. One year and six days later we were able to be sealed at the temple. We did not choose a civil ceremony because we weren’t worthy. We did it because I am the only member in my family. The church cannot reasonably ask converts to leave their families out of their weddings. We chose family over church procedure in this case, and boy am I glad. After being sealed, I’d have been mightily disappointed if that was my “wedding.” My very big, very close knit family got to attend my wedding, and I would have felt ashamed if I’d left them out of it.SunbeltRed wrote:…I read the article and it made me sad to think about the potential future of the LDS Church. Even though I personally walk purely in faith, I have a great love for the LDS Church. I don’t want to see its role or influence diminish. I would like it become bigger (which to me means opening the tent a lot wider) and helping to influence the world for good. So
in my mind, as a church, we need to innovate, which means we need to do some tinkering and experimentation. Not everything will work (that is a fundamental truth of innovation) but progression comes through moving forward, attempting things, learning from mistakes, and moving forward…I have some thoughts about ways to widen the tent but would be interested in others thoughts about the article, if others think there are any actual issue with church growth that need to be addressed, and others thought and suggestions 2) Word of Wisdom: moderation in all things. I do not drink alcohol or coffee (I drink lots of energy drinks which for some reason doesn’t violate the WofW in a literal sense, but it can’t be much better than coffee). Loosen up the word of wisdom. I don’t know how a change like this would ever happen, but
I know many of my neighbors would never even consider joining our church because of that component alone.I also have no idea what a policy change like this would do to the general population of the church (probably cause a lot of freaking out and some who might take that to mean open season on the alcohol section of the grocery store). But, it would widen the tent…Am interested to hear from others… Personally I think that most of the worst problems with the Church are directly related to overconfidence in prophets and revelation as a supposed source of reliable answers in one way or another. So a single change that would resolve many issues or at least open the way for lasting solutions to be possible would simply be for more Church leaders and/or members to recognize this and start to let go of this myth without leaving altogether the way many already have. It looks like what actually prevents the largest number of investigators from joining the Church and members raised in the Church from remaining active is generally one or more of the current temple worthiness points. If it’s not one thing there’s a good chance something else will end up being a deal-breaker (e.g. strict WoW and chastity rules, lack of testimony, tithing, etc.).
Basically it is too much to ask out of the average person nowadays and expect very many to go along with all of this at the same time. Once members believe that past and present Church leaders were/are just ordinary men then the spell is already broken for the most part and the main reason left to worry about these temple recommend points is simply concerns about what other members that still believe God is behind all this think. And why do they think God is behind it? Because that’s what the Church officially teaches and emphasizes. Even if some of the intolerance for different beliefs, stubborn resistance to change, etc. don’t really depend on the idea of reliable revelation and God-given authority these ideas definitely add to and exaggerate the effect of these tendencies.
It looks like many Church leaders feel like they should not or cannot change things from the way they are because they think this is the way God wanted it and even if they doubt that they are surrounded by other leaders and members that expect them to continue to go along with it so I’m not sure they are even open to the possibility of changing things like the WoW, priesthood for women, etc. at this point. That’s why I think the most likely scenario for major reform without the Church falling apart would be something more like the Catholic Church not in terms of doctrine and style but simply the way that people can be Catholic mostly because it is what they are familiar with and it feels like home to them without feeling like they need to believe everything their church teaches or have an unrealistic level of confidence in the leadership hierarchy, historical background, scriptures, etc.
Also, there are some things about the Church that I don’t personally like that I have to admit have probably contributed to growth and retention of members overall such as temple marriage, the one true church idea, the sanitized doctrines and history, and relying on a sense of duty, nagging, guilt-trips, peer pressure, etc. to get members to go along with things they don’t really want to. However I don’t think this will be enough to overcome some of the problems now that members are waiting longer to get married and having fewer children on average than in the past in addition to the internet exposing an increasing number of members to serious problems with the Church’s story.
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