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Before I post my question please note this isn’t a snarky or defensive question. I am not trying to start a firestorm or place blame.This past Sunday I had a weird epiphany moment. I think we as LDS church members don’t share the same “Whose In Charge of the Church” views.
During Relief Society I made a comment, not meant to be controversial but it was met with silence and strange looks. The lesson was Elder Nelsons’ conference talk on Living with Faith/Walking with Faith. It was a fine lesson, many typical answers were given to strengthen faith such as read General Conference talks and pray, have family home evening, and so forth, in the process I said I find living the scriptures much harder than reading them. I said, when I go down the list of Matthew 5 (The Sermon on the Mount) I have a long way to go in being faithful to things such as “Loving your Enemies.” I need to keep practicing so I can be more faithful. Somehow this comment missed something.
Anyway I came home and have been wrestling with a bigger question – who trumps who in our church? We have JESUS CHRIST in caps on the front of our buildings. We pray to Heavenly Father – through Jesus Christ. We claim a living Prophet (
please lets not go down the road of does the prophet receive revelation, thats another topic for another time. As I read blogs, comment threads on articles, and even listen to us I am beginning to believe we are divided on who or whom leads the church. I think this adds to disparity we already have for interpreting what is most important, but it also adds an unseen separation in practices, too. I don’t know much about God. I pray to him, he is very real to me – but what little I know of him – he is less the judgmental tyrant we seem to hold him to be. He is less angry – more interested – and more desirous to be a parent/helper/coach – than a dictatorial warlord. I have a bit more from Jesus Christ – even though I don’t know the full semantics of his life – he left me a list that has been repeated 5 different places in scripture. If I just spent my life on those I would have enough to do. The sure as shooting we have church leaders, prophets, etc.
In the end – we are a house/church/camp divided among ourselves. I don’t know whose church it is. I only know I am not standing in a group that measures soul life the way I do.
Help me out, Mom3. After reading your post I’m a little confused. I certainly do agree that we’re not all on the same page in the church as to who is in charge, and I would guess that most would probably give some answer about Jesus Christ being in charge through the prophets. But from your post I’m not sure that’s what you’re trying to get at. So, what are our choices? Are you asking who we worship and who is the final authority? God, Christ or the prophet? Clearly it’s not the prophet. God the Father and Jesus Christ are so often thought of interchangeably I think I may understand the confusion. God the father and Jesus Christ are “one” so I don’t know there would be much distinction in the issue of final authority.
Past prophets and apostles have differed on whether or not Christ should be worshipped at all. Some claim that he is essentially the vehicle to draw people to God and is not worthy of worship himself. Other leaders claim that he is also a God and worthy of worship.
If for some reason we had to rate them in a heirarchy mine would look something like this.
God= The Father
Christ= The Brother/mediator with the Father
Prophet= Butler
There is an inherent heirarchy there but all have value and play an essential role
Good question DJ – Maybe that’s why my comment made no sense in class, either. Thanks for reading my confused vent. :problem: I guess my question is – Does Christ trump everyone? or Do the living authorities trump everyone, including Christ? or Does Joseph Smith trump the living authorities but not Christ? Last of all does Heavenly Father trump all of them and how?
For instance in comment threads I see people all the time say, “It’s the Lord’s Church.” or “This is God’s church” with the implication that their personal opinion is right and some one else’s (who may be using a prophet or teacher for instance) is wrong. Okay – so which God – The Heavenly Father God or the Jesus Christ God.
I think without any of us even seeing it – we all are referencing different individuals and calling out other people based on it. For me – I would like a standard source. Because if we work hard enough everything is okay or nothing is okay – it just depends on your source. There in lies a lot of pain.
Does that help at all? I maybe still processing so it’s still messy. Keep asking for more if you need. It helps me, too.
Steve-O I love your list. I can even agree with it – especially the Butler part. However I am not certain that the community of religion see’s the list the same way. The Butler and his staff seem to trump the other 2. Now this isn’t bad. I like the Butler and many of his teachings and ideas. I like his staff, especially the message of the present leader of the staff – President Monson.
Even as I type this I am concluding that the confusion is nothing I can fix. All I can do is pick my trump person and go.
I guess, because I love so much of our religions potential, I was hoping to create a list for everyone that we could all refer to, and maybe if we all had the same list we would be less inclined to dismiss, reject, discard each other. I think the past six months has broken my heart more than I am willing to acknowledge. I wanted my faith/religion to be a harbor from the storm – not the eye of it.
So as if this post – no more list – and I think, no more personal adding to the divide. It will take an act of God to heal us. No matter whose church it is or whose is the top authority.
mom3 wrote:In the end – we are a house/church/camp divided among ourselves. I don’t know whose church it is. I only know I am not standing in a group that measures soul life the way I do.
This quote speaks to me. I had a dream the other night about an imaginary book called “Dividing Zion.” I was interested in the title because it seems like a contradiction – can Zion be divided? I had always imagined Zion as some sort of utopia. Perhaps the road to Zion is always a lonely internal road is so personal that it would be difficult for others to understand.
I think part of the confusion here is something you pointed out, Mom3. When we talk about God or The Lord, who are we really talking about? When I say God I am usually referring to Heavenly Father. But sometimes I am referring to Jehovah/Jesus and sometimes I am referring to the Holy Ghost. I have tried to become better at clarifying which I am talking about by specifically saying Heavenly Father or Christ, but the Holy Ghost is the most sticky one of the bunch. I can say I had a spiritual experience or witness from the Holy Ghost, but in talking about such experiences people very often will say something like “It was a witness (or sign) from God.” In reality, God hardly ever speaks to any of us humans directly, even the prophets. Nor does Jesus do so (sorry if I’m bursting someone’s bubble about all of the apostles seeing Christ). Almost all interaction from God to humans comes through the Holy Ghost, who is indeed God (they’re all one God). Carefully studying the circumstances surrounding OD2 will reveal that the revelation came the same way it does to everyone else – a feeling from the Holy Ghost (sorry again if I’m bursting someone’s bubble about Pres Kimball having a chat with the Savior in the temple). So I know who I am talking about when I say God, but do you? In all likelihood I have discovered that the other person has a very different view of what I’m saying. In my effort to be more clear I have also made a concerted effort to be less clear sometimes – just saying “God” as a generic and thereby covering the bases for the other person/people.
So to answer what I think your question is, I certainly don’t think the prophets trump any part of deity. This is the church of Jesus Christ, which would lead one to believe He might be in charge (although scriptures, including D&C, do reference the Church of God). OTOH, since Christ himself rarely interacts with people is it really the church of the Holy Ghost? If the Holy Ghost is God, isn’t He more than just a messenger?
Roy – I am hoping your book shows up in my dream, I would really like to read it. Zion-Utopia – yes I think I too qualify for imagining something different than it may be. Maybe today’s wrestle is the next step on my personal path of spiritual growth. One more blinder of expectation removed. One more opportunity to work with unknown pieces to build the structure of my convictions/faith. I keep thinking of the Emily Dickinson poem – http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/49/11/87/49118773e671f4476fca0318da6488f6.jpg DJ – Perhaps this wrestle for me is necessary so that when I communicate my convictions, my wishes, my anchor – I can be clear, to myself and to others. Maybe it’s an invitation for me to present my spiritual references better than I do. Even if someone else doesn’t use the same measuring stick or iron rod, at least when we talk to each other we will have a point of reference.
Instead of just saying “football” and hoping each of us is thinking of American NFL football. Because if they are thinking European football – we really don’t have a common ground. From there every exchange of information will be frustrating, because we each see a different game with different rules in our minds.
To me, the standard answer for this is easy. God directs the church through Jesus, who then reveals his will to the prophets. Whether its God at the helm of the prophet, or Jesus is immaterial as they are unified and have the same mind and will. In practice — what happens? I think people tend to look to the prophet unquestioningly as he’s the only tangible version of God’s message we have on earth. And of course, many of us believe the prophets are mistaken in some respects throughout history and DO lead us astray. This puts prophets in a position to trump God given their human weakness, fallibility, etcetera.
In theory, every member will say it is God’s church (whether they mean the Father or the Son – or don’t really try to distinguish between the two). In practice (what people’s words and actions seem to imply), what looks like the answer (or order) depends on the individual members. Some members will say God runs the church but act as if every leader at every level runs it, while some members will say God runs it and pretty much ignore the leadership – and most members move back and forth along the spectrum pretty fluidly.
I think, generally speaking, it’s whoever we put at the top through our own words and actions.
If you are interested, the following posted on my person blog last Wednesday:
“
It’s Not about Jesus; It’s about You and Me” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2014/07/its-not-about-jesus-its-about-you-and-me.html Mom3: Interesting questions. Here are a few ways to look at it: – some members think of it as God = Jesus = prophet. The fact of the matter is that the prophet isn’t always in perfect alignment with God or Jesus; he is fallible, and he is the one who is basically interpreting God for the rest of us. That to me is why we must have our own relationship with God and THAT trumps what we hear from humans, no matter how high up they are. Our brains must remain in the “on” position.
– I tend to think that people create God in a mix of their own image and how they view their own father. The God I hear some of our leaders describing bears little resemblance to the one I believe in, and that’s why IMO.
– That last statement is why I sometimes question the existence of God, because sometimes God seems like a voice within rather than someone external. I’m ambivalent on this, but when I am in times of need, I really do feel as though God exists and is a source of strength.
this is my very first post here ever. I think it is very clear what mom3 is asking and I come out of the shadows to make a post to state strongly what I think the answer is. I started questioning only about 3 months ago, so I am new to this experience and don’t have the experiences of the rest of you, but I think the answer is very very very clear. follow the Prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet. the message we hear in General Conference is re-inforced each time. while there is always a subtle theme of Jesus Christ, the strongest message is to listen and obey what we are told by “the brethren”. the leaders of the church are the leaders of the church. dead prophets are dead. the son of god is dead. the only ones living and able to lead us are the ones that alive today. i’ve felt this for a long time and this is what has led me to start questioning. the church leaders do not expect us to look to scripture for how to live our lives, so much in our church culture and doctrine is different that what is in the scriptures. they expect us to live according to today, but the problem is that all they want us to do is look to them, but in so many important things, they are late, wrong, out of step. the answer to the whose church it is is simple. it is led by the 15 (that is changed as well) men at the very top and the other leaders. anything prior to the current leadership is on the chopping block. this church is so very different from what Jesus would have started, it simply would not be recognized.
i just went and re-read a few conference talks on this. i don’t know how to post stuff from there. but references to 14 fundamentals makes this very clear.
this is the key topic in this thing called the breaking of my shelf. i don’t think there are many items i have issue with the church about and love attending, but it is clear that scripture, Jesus, Joseph, and everything written prior to pres monson can be ignored. it is his (pres monson) church. this willingness to ignore scripture while making sure we all read and study scripture and past prophets and ignore much of what was taught has caused me to try and understand why. than… i discover this huge rift in the church. all of you. all the podcasts. all the blogs. all the facebook groups. i just found out about kate kelly last week. so horrible. i thought the only people who questioned the brethren were drunkards and drug users. now i find out that i’m one of them and it is their church, not God’s church. my heart is heavy typing this. i don’t understand why it has to be like this. the gospel was taught to me as a simple thing. it is of man. has it always been of man. was it of God under Joseph? was it of God under the prophet when i was growing up, pres hinckley? when did things go wrong? do any of you have answers?
mom3, this church is the church of the 15. it is not the church of God, or of Jesus. my heart breaks.
mom3 asks the right question. the answer is in the tears of all those who can see.
does the pain go away?
I love so many things about our board over here, this thread proves my point. I really needed the processing experience and each of you helped immensely. Ray and Hawkgrrl – thank you for your salient thoughts, too. Rationally we really each do interpret our God/Leader personally. Even though I knew everyone drew their own lines in the sand, I had some how assumed we had a common stopping point. My assumption was wrong. Moreover – it is an impossibility. If God speaks to individuals, he may well tell two different individuals two different things and both of them could be right. (I know it’s a simple example but it works in the moment.)
I guess I had just never taken my logic to the next step. I listened to others and assumed they were thinking/seeing my way. I go forward now with a more open heart and ears to hear others, to learn and to love. I am still sticking with my point of view for myself, but am going to try hard to let others point of view awaken me to understand them.
I really do appreciate each of you asking me to clarify. The effort was necessary for my growth. Sunday and Monday were a real wrestle for me. Thanks.
The question is mute because of the way the church has evolved. We’ve gone from an ideal Man>God>church…. to the commom religion model of man> CHURCH> god.
That is fact. Mormoms are not allowed, nor do they believe that man can meet out thier own salvation with Christ. Church/priesthood is required and is the conduit to Christ’s salvation.
That is a fact.
cwald wrote:The question is mute because of the way the church has evolved.
We’ve gone from an ideal Man>God>church…. to the commom religion model of man> CHURCH> god.
That is fact. Mormoms are not allowed, nor do they believe that man can meet out thier own salvation with Christ. Church/priesthood is required and is the conduit to Christ’s salvation.
That is a fact.
Excellent point cwald. I think that’s why most of use here recognize the need to connect directly with God without church intervention/interference in as many ways as possible. really, the biggest and best thing I have done is separate the core gospel principles from the church and view them as completely separate entities. Only one of them really matters to our salvation, I think you all can figure out which one that is.
With that in mind, Mom3, does it matter who runs the church? If my salvation is really dependent on my relationship with God (I’m talking all three or more parts here), what part does the church play?
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