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November 2, 2014 at 7:49 pm #209298
Anonymous
GuestIt has been 8 years since I had a calling. Partly from availability issues; working on Sunday, camping with non-LDS scouts on Sunday, going to some meetings at other churches with family members who belong to them. Partly from growing inflexibility of an over correlated church. And of course, partly because of my own outspoken obnoxious attitude. Our ward was divided 3 years ago but the youth are so few that the youth programs are still together. I live near the boundary and attend whichever meetings are most convenient and easily pass as a flaky member of either ward. One bishop is a good friend, the other where I am officially assigned appears to be afraid of me (after a power play he lost- another story) and hasn’t spoken to me more than a sentence a year in a more than the decade since then. The friend bishop told me the scoutmaster is burned out and asked me to work with the scouts. It has taken several months for him to get the other (my official) bishop to issue the actual calling which he finally did in one sentence (Hey, is it true you want to work with the scouts? Fine by me.) while walking down the hall between meetings.
I went to a stake scouting meeting and that was an eye-opener. Incredible problems abound in this stake unheard of in the non-LDS troop. I see them as a direct result of our unique policies and practices. I said nothing, being new. Our scoutmaster was not there. I sent emails and made phone calls to the scout master and YMP and they have not answered any of them. I missed two Sunday’s worth of meetings in a row for the usual reasons. Unexpected demands for two Wednesday nights in a row kept me at work until 9:00 pm. As if God or the devil is preventing me from doing this but I can’t tell which.
Last week I finally made it to the church on Wednesday night. I felt a sense of apprehension and excitement at the prospects. I had in mind a possible camping trip and maybe some activities to teach scouting skills if I was unexpectedly called into service. (Be prepared). The place looked abandoned, only 2 cars in the parking lot and another driving up at the same time as I to make it 4 cars. The other car was driven by a bishopric counselor and he looked at me in my well-worn scout shirt like I am crazy and asked what I am doing there. The door was locked and two women about age 25 were chatting in the foyer and they let us in.
I asked the two women if they have seen any scouts. They said no, but the joint activity was that night and it began an hour before at 6:00 pm. The young men had gone somewhere, to a dissection at a cadaver lab. None of the few young women in the ward showed up so these two YW leaders were just chatting in the foyer for a few minutes while their husbands had their young children for the evening.
I alone was surprised at the activity, and asked if they thought that was an appropriate activity for youth? Don’t they do dissections on bodies that are naked? Do you think it would be an acceptable church youth activity for young men to look at naked dead women and young women to look at naked dead men and then watch them get cut up? I presume this is not exactly covered in the handbook, but…
They looked completely clueless and turned to the bishop’s counselor who was still standing there listening to me. They seemed entirely incapable of forming an opinion of their own contrary to whatever the church was doing. The counselor said the activity had been approved and therefore he didn’t see a problem with it. They nodded complacently. I said that if my children were still teenagers I would see a huge problem with it as a parent. He fumbled around in his digital device for a number for me to call to voice my complaint and then informed us that according to his notes the activity was being conducted by a Dr. K., an orthopedic surgeon in the ward. I surmised that perhaps they were only going to look at cadaver joints; knees and ankles and such. Maybe a hand or foot. Those ortho guys have little interest in internal organs or the “organs of regeneration.”
Another middle-aged, overweight, not-well-dressed woman who appeared to be distressed showed up and the counselor soon disappeared with her into a room. I smiled and said a polite hello and briefly introduced myself to her but the other two women completely ignored her.
I was about to leave but thought to maybe stay another minute to chat and become better acquainted with the two young women leaders since scouts are prone to causing mischief with young women and we might have to discuss these sorts of problems in the future and the evening’s venture would not be a complete waste.
They were both BYU grads, daughters of church leaders, (area authority president and mission president) and seemed about as devoted as possible. They did not ask me one question; nothing about my callings or family or anything that might be designed to determine if I was up to any good even though they had never met me or seen me at church. I could have been released from prison the day before and willing to talk about it and they would have never known. I was not accustomed to this level of being deferred to and trusted by adult women.
They discussed briefly between themselves how to reactivate one of the girls. But they didn’t seem to see the connection between an activity that not one girl wanted to attend and a girl who didn’t want to attend one activity. My idea that the YW program could be modified to attract the youth to it instead of trying to modify the youth to attend a program seemed to be a crazy or radical to them. The idea of making it attractive to non-LDS girls was unthinkable and irrelevant and dismissed immediately.
A teenage girl showed up in a car in a rush. I vaguely knew about her mother. The mother had recently married and taken on the responsibility of helping to raise 4 of his small children, according to her most recent testimony on Fast Sunday. She had been a single parent from age 15 and partially dependent on the church for both financial and emotional support, but I had forgotten her name. The now nearly grown daughter didn’t recognize me and informed the young women leaders that she was there to see the bishop. She looked close to tears and I surmised a likely conflict of some sort with her new mixed family or less likely some variation of the same problem her mother had at that age. But I could be wrong.
My official bishop breezed in efficiently and took her to his office with scarcely a word to the rest of us. I stayed a few more minutes chatting and soon found myself astonishing the two women with tales of my mission days when we were not on as tight of a leash as they are now. A time when we did not fear our mission president because we knew he cared about us like a doting uncle and he would not send us home in disgrace except for the most severe offenses wherein we essentially demanded to be sent home. They thought this a rather strange arrangement. Missionaries should fear their mission president to some extent, they relayed.
The counselor and middle-aged woman left and the rest of us decided it was time to go also. One of the young women leaders assured us that we had all been there long enough to get credit for it. Credit where, I thought.
As I drove away I realized that the bishop was about 30 minutes into an urgent conversation with this young woman and we were leaving him alone not only in his office but in the entire building. I mentioned this to my wife when I got home and she was concerned enough that she asked me why I didn’t at least stay in the foyer in case something did happen? I drove back to the church and the door was locked. But the two cars remained and a single light burned on in the bishop’s office. This about an hour into a private urgent conversation between a 16 year old girl and a nearly 60 year old man while alone together in a dark building. I left.
I had issues with this practice of bishops interviewing youth alone over a decade ago. After years of conflict, I had been assured by current ward leaders many times that I got this one right and the church had changed; that the bishops were no longer interviewing youth alone. I am not in the mood to go tattling on a bishop and will probably just let this one ride. I can’t cure ebola either, not my problem any more.
My weak enthusiasm for this new calling is gone. I have done nothing and already I feel so done. Is this to be what I have to look forward to and seem pretty representative of the normal course of events on a typical Wednesday night at the ward house of a small ward these days?
November 2, 2014 at 9:05 pm #291423Anonymous
GuestSerious question:Are you interested in honest input, even if it’s uncomfortable – or are you looking only for sympathy and validation? There is no way I or anyone else can help you in any way if we don’t know your motivation for being here, and all we have had up to this point (since you first registered) is a litany of absolute worst-case scenario horror stories – and you haven’t said one kind or charitable word (that I can recall) about anyone in the Church in any of your horror stories while characterizing pretty much every person with whom you’ve interacted in insulting ways. If you seriously are interested in how to stay LDS and find a degree of peace and happiness in doing so, we can provide input. If not, if the sum total of your experiences is as hellish as the stories you tell here and you believe the LDS Church is overflowing with jerks, idiots and mindless morons, there really isn’t anything we can do to help.
I am sincere in wanting to contribute what I can, but right now there is nothing I can say with any confidence.
November 3, 2014 at 8:48 pm #291424Anonymous
GuestJackpot Old-Timer!!! Think of something nice . (Like me roasting over an open fire, just kidding).
Rather shall we visualize fall leaves in the Utah Mountains. Gosh, I miss them. Do you?
(Please don’t tell me it has already snowed on them.)
Now, Is this your response not a bit over the top? I am a character in your personal horror story of blog trolls. (Kettle calling the pot black.) You say you want to play nice, with that response?
I must be hitting on something pretty uncomfortable for you to react that way.
What exactly about me is it that you despise?
What does that say about your own issues?
Just asking, I don’t need an answer.
Is it my painting of a picture, that too many of our best young Mormon women who get all the responsible callings actually are clueless to the extreme point described above? Trained up to be unfit to hold any position of real responsibility and leadership? (And not like the women on this site who do have brains and are inclined to use them). Is that what is so horrible?
Is it the appearance that is trumpeted, our bishops now generally do invite chaperones into youth interviews, when requested by nervous-Nellie parents. But that for the most part nothing has changed? And Bishops being mostly good men, nothing bad enough is likely to happen very soon or very often to force the issue. One of my better victories, of getting my ward to shape up on this matter, is actually a farce. We both know it now. Changing the LDS church more than a few little tweeks might be a farce and if so, then it will slowly die. Does that bother you?
Is your Mormon persecution defense kicking in? (I have a pretty strong one too.) I would think you are far beyond that one.
“Serious Question: Are you interested in honest input, even if it’s uncomfortable – or are you looking only for sympathy and validation?”
You already deliver on both accounts. Nicely done. What did you say? Look at it. Go to hell is the honest message I am receiving. My experiences are horrible (validation) ; and irrelevant, contrived, driven by some hidden agenda. Not so. Not going willingly either.
Have you really listened to what they are saying over on the anti-sites? They are our brothers and sisters. Lost sheep all of us. My little scenario is pretty typical. How could it surprise you or horrify you? I think the trouble with me is that I chose to not leave even when I had been given many reasons, better than most. Don’t forget the greater context; that the majority of baptised Mormons have left and most of them have similar stories. These stories, one can argue, might be distorted. But they are true for them. Their perspective drives their decisions.
Experiment: Limit to today’s date and check any critical site and find a similar horror story on any one of them. My first stab:
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40029 Listen to our stories . Know why people leave. Every day.
Want people to stay? Change these stories. Otherwise the hemorrhage continues.
I am not interested in finding peace and happiness in the LDS church at this point. If and when I do I will leave y‘all alone. From my (dis)vantage point the LDS church is already more than half way to hell and drastic actions are required to reverse that course. We have had comforting fables long enough. If you want to make me uncomfortable, then blast away. If you think that will help me or you or the greater cause of Zion. ( Like anyone on a computer screen can add anything more uncomfortable than my already long litany of horror stories actually experienced).
I am interested in repentance. Redemption through the Atonement of Christ. Personal and for the purposes of this blog LDS institutional repentance. Recognition being the first and crucial step. If you want peace and happiness delete me and go have a coke; you know their motto: “Open happiness.”
For the record:
– I have a connection to the LDS faith and people so deep that to call it love is to trivialize it.
– I cannot begin to describe what I have sacrificed in emotional and physical pain for this cause.
– I am outraged at what the faith of my fathers has become. This is the real litany of horror stories. What we have done and are doing to people in God’s name. (Notice “we”- I have done it too).
– I am old and not in good health. Not much time left.
– I want to foster change. Maybe just a little. Maybe a lot. (I can still dream.)
I think that many people doing many things wrong might result in someone doing something right. (Blind squirrels find acorns too). Better than shut up and do nothing.I don’t see any other option. Its not like we have organized loyal opposition. Even if nothing I ever say is spot on correct, if it influences anyone else in the right direction then it is worth it. If one person reads my litany of horror stories and does one little thing different in their ward to lessen the craziness and abuse then it is worth it. (One acorn is worth more than 100 rocks.)
Does that shed light on my motives?
Footnote: In a legalistic and unnecessary defense of my submission:
Is it not a bit unfair to bring in my other contributions, (the best of which have been deleted) to shed distorted light on this one? Should not criticism of this submission stand alone, based solely on it?
Is this an ad hominem attack? Everything I have said before is wrong, therefore anything else I say is wrong.
My first five paragraphs are fair, honest, mostly kind and charitable. And more than one word long.
I didn’t make up any of this including the details. Joint activity going to a dissection, bishop in the building for an hour alone talking to a young girl, etc. The colors of my painting may be horribly vivid but the objects painted are real events. (Blame the messenger).
Your response to it has already stirred up my desire to go over to scouting and kick some correlated ass this week. Through it you prove to be of benefit already, thank you.
On another matter:
To whichever of you who deleted my brilliant but too long characterization of a forthcoming wedding wherein I offered to walk the bride down the aisle of the ring ceremony in place of her unwilling father, dressed in a Baden Powel British hat and clownish yellow jacket. That actually worked. The young lady after laughing herself silly at my suggestion has decided to have her ring ceremony and is walking her own little self down the aisle. She gives me credit for the inspiration to do it. It helps that she has known me since she was about 4 years old and has a very healthy appreciation of my craziness. I consider my planned but aborted stunt, the description of which was deemed not suitable for consumption on this site, to be a rare victory.
November 3, 2014 at 11:04 pm #291425Anonymous
Guest**I’ve copied this thread here so his response to Ray can be read by the Mods and discussed. I have for now left the thread in its original place, locked it, and deleted the last response from Porter which has not value to the forum, IMO.
Since it is copied here, we can copy back anything if we feel we should.
This exchange between Porter and Ray should be handled through PMs.
We should discuss how to handle Porter. He seems like he was happy to have a guantlet thrown and he wants a debate.
November 3, 2014 at 11:21 pm #291421Anonymous
GuestI wrote my comment specifically to see how he would react, since a direct response would have been inappropriate. It would have been something like: Quote:From your own posts here, it appears you have extreme anger issues, have a violent and confrontational personality, have absolutely no charity and probably have alienated everyone in the Church to the point where they don’t want to deal with you at all.
His response is exactly what I thought he would write.
He is not a good match at all for this site. I would have no problem banning him, but if someone wants to try private messages first I am fine with that. What do you think?
Also, Heber, thanks for your comment. This is a case where it’s important for everyone to know it wasn’t me who deleted the comment and locked the thread.
November 3, 2014 at 11:32 pm #291420Anonymous
GuestYes….I specifically put my name on the admin note that I did this for that exact reason. I just went back and redid it to make it more clear I was the moderator taking the action.
Regarding Porter, I’d like to see him go away feeling he doesn’t fit in than us actually ban him. Maybe it doesn’t matter.
Last time I sent him the PM about attacking BN and his other attacking comments, and he responded and I explained why we don’t attack anyone, living or dead, he said he understood and I thought his response to that thread afterwards was fine. So … he did respond to the PM.
I have no problem banning him either, to be honest, based on how everyone feels. He’s a bit of a scary personality, even acknowledges he is obnoxious.
But I am willing to PM him a second time and tell him to drop the fighting gloves and post constructively, or we’ll ban him.
November 3, 2014 at 11:36 pm #291422Anonymous
GuestTell him I was totally sincere in my comment. There simply is nothing we can offer if the only thing he wants to do is post extreme stories and insult all members of the Church. November 5, 2014 at 9:11 pm #291426Anonymous
GuestI’m ready to ban Porter based on his response he is not going to add to our mission, but wants to stir the pot and will proselytize people to leave the church. Besides, he’s an ass.
I assume you’re OK with me banning him based on his email:
orrinrockwell@yahoo.com I’ll just wait to get a nod, then ban him.
November 5, 2014 at 11:21 pm #291427Anonymous
GuestLet’s give it another day or two, in order to see if any other admins and mods want to comment. If we don’t hear anything else, go for it. November 9, 2014 at 6:29 pm #291428Anonymous
GuestI agree with all your assessment. November 11, 2014 at 12:01 am #291429Anonymous
GuestGiven his latest tirade that I had to address publicly, go ahead and ban him. The lack of reading comprehension skills might be enough of a reason all by itself. (Seriously, thinking that people here are telling him that he MUST accept and believe everything any apostle says?!) :wtf: November 11, 2014 at 1:51 pm #291430Anonymous
GuestHe’s not someone that can be helped via an internet chat group. He isn’t contributing useful material to the community. November 11, 2014 at 4:11 pm #291431Anonymous
GuestI may have been mixed up between 2 different members that have made me wonder if they fit with us. Originally I was wanting to ban Porter. I haven’t seen him login since Nov 7
Lately, and in the thread of “Does Historicity Matter” it was Rsbenson who was out of line.
Not sure which should be banned? Rsbenson?
November 11, 2014 at 4:28 pm #291432Anonymous
GuestBan Porter. I think he got the message and won’t be participating anymore, but let’s make it formal. I asked Rsbenson not to comment in that thread, at least, and I think he also has stopped participating, based on a comment that I deleted. I think it’s fine to ban him, as well.
Any objections from anyone?
November 11, 2014 at 11:58 pm #291433Anonymous
GuestNo objections. I’ll check back tonight to see if anyone else has thoughts, otherwise, I’ll move ahead with both. -
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