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I ran across this quote from Thomas JeffersonQuote:“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear…. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness but
uprightnessof the decision.” It reminded me of a quote I heard on Krista Tippett’s podcast On Being—I forget who said it—but it went something like this: “Even God must agree that the existence of God is an unimportant question; the important question is how you have lived your life.”
It’s ideas like these that keep me from throwing out the bathwater, the baby, and demolishing the entire house. While some feel comfortable with the idea of relying on the Spirit, emotion, intuition, or some kind of “energy”—those ideas simply don’t match up with my experience at all. I can only trust that if God exists s/he will be more interested in my personal honesty and goodness along with my attempts to continually learn and do better than in what level of understanding I have achieved about some fact or another. I know there are so many historical, ethical, and theological issues that cause people pain and disillusionment, but sometimes those issues feel so distant to me when all I can do is take another staggering step away from the cliff of complete nihilism. Sigh. I started this post feeling hopeful but have ended it feeling even worse than before. Hope feels like such a slender thread at times.
That’s a boss quote. From time to time I feel like we should dispense with all the worrying about measuring up to a judging god because god is probably more interested in listening to us tell our story. We all come back to the presence of god wounded. Maybe meeting god isn’t an event where we are placed on a scale so much as it is an experience where we get to sit beside god and he says “So, tell me all about it. I’ve got as much time as you need.”
God, the great listener. And the funny thing about that… I can find plenty of great listeners in this life and I can certainly be a great listener for someone else.
I don’t know that God exists, I believe He does, but that belief is based as much on empirical evidence as anything else. Simply put, I don’t think the big bang and life itself just randomly started. God as a creator works for me, but that definition probably doesn’t work for everyone and that’s fine. While I have a very hard time with the God of the Lost Car Keys, apparently some people need that type of belief (although I think it sets them up for eventual cognitive dissonance). So maybe our belief in God is what we each need it to be. Piggybacking on NIbbler, if God really is the loving parent type God, as is often taught in the church, I see returning to Him much more like reunions we experience here on earth. I greatly look forward to my son’s return from his mission, and don’t expect him to give me a full account of all his doings, successes, and failures. I’ll just be happy to have him back (even though he will head back to college a couple months later) and I’ll love to see how he has grown.
One of my favorite aspects of Mormon theology is the concept of eternal progression – both for the eternal and for the progression – that allows us to be “agents unto ourselves” in this life and evolve into godly agents in the future. It also places ultimate importance on what we do and become, not just what we say and claim. It ties the importance of God’s existence to the importance of our existence in a really powerful and unique way (at least, within Christianity), and I love it. In that sense, our actual theology is perfectly in line with Jefferson’s quote, even if a major part of the culture of a few decades ago (that influenced / affected most of us here as emerging adults) didn’t reflect that theological emphasis very well. Our view of “Heaven” is NOT sitting around on a cloud praising God forever in a state of stagnation, and that is true about our view of this life, as well.
Yeah, that gets messed up regularly at times (because we collectively are messed up), but it provides a theological grandeur and meaning that I simply don’t find anywhere else.
Ray, I love that part of Mormon theology as well. I’ve never thought of it so clearly, though, so thanks for putting it into great words. My sister and I have talked about the existence of God recently when she came clean to me that she only identifies herself as Mormon to our parents and our younger siblings for their sake (she married her husband in the temple, but they both pretty much did it to make our families happy, and they are both, luckily, happy to pursue their spirituality elsewhere). If there is no God, then we have nothing to worry about. If there is a God and He is loving, then He will also be just and understanding and He will not, so to speak, judge a fish against a monkey on its ability to climb a tree. If there is a God and He is very strict and unforgiving, then, well, I guess we each have to decide if that is a God that we wish to spend our entire mortal existence attempting to please.
Daeruin wrote:I ran across this
quote from Thomas JeffersonQuote:“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear…. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness but
uprightnessof the decision.” It reminded me of a quote I heard on Krista Tippett’s podcast On Being—I forget who said it—but it went something like this: “Even God must agree that the existence of God is an unimportant question; the important question is how you have lived your life.”
It’s ideas like these that keep me from throwing out the bathwater, the baby, and demolishing the entire house. While some feel comfortable with the idea of relying on the Spirit, emotion, intuition, or some kind of “energy”—those ideas simply don’t match up with my experience at all. I can only trust that if God exists s/he will be more interested in my personal honesty and goodness along with my attempts to continually learn and do better than in what level of understanding I have achieved about some fact or another. I know there are so many historical, ethical, and theological issues that cause people pain and disillusionment, but sometimes those issues feel so distant to me when all I can do is take another staggering step away from the cliff of complete nihilism. Sigh. I started this post feeling hopeful but have ended it feeling even worse than before. Hope feels like such a slender thread at times.
Daeruin,
Thanks for sharing. I like both of those. I think it was SD that posted a quote attribute to Marcus Aurelius (I have read that he might not have said it, but I like it anyway and it is something I have adopted for myself):
Quote:Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
-SBRed
Amen to the “Live a good life” quote. Excellent, simple advice to live by. Focusing on trying to be good and think of others in the here and now helps me feel closer to God than such things as genealogy or other things we are taught by the Church. In my head, that must mean something.
If my daughter came home from college, and told me that based on some philosophy classes and things she was learning about how to think critically and learn, right now while she is learning and struggling through those thoughts to figure it out, if she blurted out “Honestly dad, I am not sure if you are real. All I know is my thoughts and that I exist. I don’t know what to think about you.”
I would not be upset, or offended, or kick her out of my house.
I’d probably be proud at how much she is trying to struggle through such deep thoughts, and keep talking to her so I can see how her thoughts are progressing. And I’d give her a big hug and tell her I’m proud of her.
And God is a way better parent than I am.
Someone reminded me recently Prayer is for us, not for God. In that same thought…believing the existence of God is for us, not Him. He’ll exist or not, whether I believe it or not. So…I better get on with life and become who I am supposed to become.
Heber13 wrote:Someone reminded me recently Prayer is for us, not for God. In that same thought…believing the existence of God is for us, not Him. He’ll exist or not, whether I believe it or not. So…I better get on with life and become who I am supposed to become.
I love that. Thank you.Good thread with lots of helpful quotes. Thank you all. it does seem like a paradox – perhaps the more holy we are the less we worry about god’s existence and the more we live a good life.
Roadrunner wrote:Good thread with lots of helpful quotes. Thank you all.
it does seem like a paradox – perhaps the more holy we are the less we worry about god’s existence and the more we live a good life.
:thumbup:
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