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I am fairly new here and really haven’t posted since my introduction. I read everyday though, and I am grateful for those on here who offer advice and a perspective on how to stay LDS. A few months ago a sister missionary that had served in our ward and returned home had posted a comment or a like on John Dehlin’s status. I had not heard of him and clicked to learn something about him. He sometimes shows up on my timeline and yesterday I saw a post and clicked through. It was probably a bad idea. I found some comments, and long story short, found a lengthy “letter” written to a person of authority in the church. It was an overview of questions about the origin of the Book of Mormon and other issues. I read things on there that have shaken me to my core. When I started my faith crisis a few months ago I told myself that the bottom line for me was that I knew that Joseph Smith could not have made up the Book of Mormon If the BoM was true, the gospel has to be true, even if JS is flawed. After reading this letter late into the night, I know wonder about the BoM. My whole family is LDS, I still have a child at home, and if I were to walk away from the church at this point it would cause more grief than I could even imagine. I ask myself how my family could have been converted so many decades ago, how my grandfather could have practiced polygamy, and if he would have had he known everything about the “dark side” of JS.
Now what? I want to believe because it has been familiar all these years. My family is so entrenched in the gospel. Can the gospel be true if JS didn’t translate the plates? With all the questions that surround the BoM, and the actual history that seems to cast so much doubt, can I really stay LDS? Do I have to turn my back on logic and historical evidence in order to embrace the gospel? I am literally sick to my stomach and can’t talk about this with anyone. It is truly frightening. It’s like my foundation that was getting a little rocky is literally crumbling around me. How do you all do it and overlook such glaring issues?
Eternity4me wrote: Quote:When I started my faith crisis a few months ago I told myself that the bottom line for me was that I knew that Joseph Smith could not have made up the Book of Mormon If the BoM was true, the gospel has to be true, even if JS is flawed.
This is where I stand with the Church & the gospel. As far as I’m concerned, that’s good enough for me.
For me, there is no more internal debate. That might seem naive. For me, that is what faith is.
I try to identify the things I believe & build from there.
I don’t overlook the issues. The church has “extracted” a lot from me over the lat 30 years or so. I have expectations of the organization as a whole. But like you, I have family entwined in the entire experience. My approach is to comply to the extent I must, in order to preserve my family relationships. While at the same time, minimizing the negative impact of the church on my life. I serve the community now, and grow there. I will support my family in being Mormon, and I leave myself open to return to full activity if I wish. All the while, making sure my conscience, my logic, my sense of right and wrong is never at the mercy of the church’s conscience. Church direction us not always inspired, and my own spiritual sensing, logic, understanding is the filter against influential people who get to influence the culture, and then make outrageous statements or expect me to give in to unreasonable demands.
First…welcome. I’m glad you joined and shared your feelings. I hope you find this a safe place to explore thoughts.
Eternity4me wrote:Now what? I want to believe because it has been familiar all these years. My family is so entrenched in the gospel. Can the gospel be true if JS didn’t translate the plates?
The simple answer is “Yes”. But there are more to the questions you are asking, and how responses to each question lead to more questions.
If you were to ask: “If Joseph didn’t translate the plates does that necessarily mean the gospel is false?” I would say no. I think what this means is that the meaning of things may open up and become more complex to you, more nuanced in thinking, and more broad in meaning than the simplistic testimony you once had.
Quote:1 Cor 13: 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Eternity4me wrote:With all the questions that surround the BoM, and the actual history that seems to cast so much doubt, can I really stay LDS?
Absolutely. And many people do it as proof of this.
Eternity4me wrote:Do I have to turn my back on logic and historical evidence in order to embrace the gospel?
No. You may just need to understand the purpose of logic and historical evidence vs the purpose of spiritual or mystical things in life. Logic doesn’t always help you understand your feelings of love or compassion…it can be similar with spiritual feelings or emotions. Don’t discard logic…just learn it’s purpose and place.
Eternity4me wrote:I am literally sick to my stomach and can’t talk about this with anyone. It is truly frightening. It’s like my foundation that was getting a little rocky is literally crumbling around me. How do you all do it and overlook such glaring issues?
First…take a deep breath and slow down. The sky will not fall. You will find life will move on. With or without your beliefs in the LDS church, life will go on.
I would avoid taking drastic actions…such as resigning from the church, standing in church and tell wide sweeping judgements about what you have just discovered, or even privately telling your parents your fears or thoughts. Manage through this time and know that there is opportunity for you to grow in your perspective. And you don’t need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, all the beautiful things of your mormon heritage for the troubling things you’re discovering.
There have been decades long of people going through what you are going through. And the smartest minds on the planet cannot prove or disprove the church to you. It becomes a matter of faith for you. And it is often a lonely or personal journey, and it takes years. Please read the “
How do I stay essayThe good news is you have found friends who understand your feelings. Perhaps some of us have walked ahead of you on this path and are happy to stay and happy to talk about our experiences.
I’m glad you are here. I hope you keep posting questions on what you are learning and share you feelings with us. I look forward to reading your posts.
Welcome Eternity – We are glad to have you. We are a family here. We cheer, we grieve, we share and most of all we understand. Not everyone here has the exact same issues, but we share enough in common and have wrestled so much that even if the Historicity of the Book of Mormon is not someone’s issue, they will have had another that threw them a loop. As strange as that may sound, I find it comforting, it gives us ballast as we quietly, anonymously work on building Zion over here. Yes – you just hit a brick wall and the sustained impact is intense and no it won’t go away quickly, but, like others have suggested give yourself some time. I would suggest keeping your reading over here for a while. There are myriad places to read, facebook groups and so on. You have concerns about family – this is a very valuable resource – it is the reason to take your time. Thinking of it as doing a favor for them. We have years of discussions on Book of Mormon, translation, historicity and so on. Read them, digest them.
One other idea you may take is make a list of what you like about membership in the church. If you find positives consider those as your focus.
Most of all, come back, wrestle – we may post a thread connection for you too read or add our thoughts. We like to help, we have been there in one form or another – we would love to continue to help.
Deep breath, friend. As others have recommended, don’t take any drastic steps. I know how you feel. Many if not most of us here are familiar with the letter you refer to. I encountered it during my own FC, and I also felt the same feelings you are feeling now. It’s been several months since my FC, and I am now into the faith transition stage. I have managed to find great peace, retain my logic as well as my faith, and stay LDS. I don’t say this because I except you to do the same, but because I want you to know that it is very possible to stay LDS and balance logic, science, evidence, and faith successfully. It will be a slow, gradual process. But it is possible to find peace.
Heber13 wrote:Eternity4me wrote:With all the questions that surround the BoM, and the actual history that seems to cast so much doubt, can I really stay LDS?
Absolutely. And many people do it as proof of this.
Yep, I’m one of those people. Like I said, it is very possible. However, it may not be for everyone. That is only for you to decide. BUT you don’t have to decide now, and you shouldn’t. Take some time. Process. Share. Ask for advice and support. There were many days during the initial few days of my FC where the pain was nearly overwhelming for me, and many days where I broke down crying in my car or my bedroom. It took me several weeks (and that’s relatively fast) to be able to start to come to peace with things, and at the end, I determined that I was OK staying LDS. It just means I have to keep my mouth shut a lot more than I normally do, because I also determined that no one else would start doubting because of me.Eternity4me wrote:I am literally sick to my stomach and can’t talk about this with anyone. It is truly frightening. It’s like my foundation that was getting a little rocky is literally crumbling around me. How do you all do it and overlook such glaring issues?
At least in my case, I wouldn’t say I’ve overlooked the glaring issues. I will happily discuss and analyze any of them with anyone offering a pleasant, non-confrontational discussion. We do that here in the forum for many topics. The trick isn’t overlooking the issues. It’s facing them, fighting them, and winning some level of peace. It’s not something you have to do alone, though.From one of my favorite memes: “So you’ve hit rock bottom? A solid foundation.”
Of course, your foundation feels like it’s crumbling. Yeah. I was there. I think most if not all of us were at one time or another. But that can be a good thing. That gives you the opportunity to determine for yourself what you believe. You don’t have to rely on the foundations of others. You can now build your own.
Take a deep breath, friend. It’s not an easy path to be on. But you aren’t alone on it.
I am new to trying to help others right were you are, but given that I think I was were you are at about a year+ ago I will tell you what I would tell myself if I could go back in time. First (as West said), calm down and don’t make any rash decisions. You will have time to make decisions. This is not a “please don’t leave the church ” plea. It is more to not do something rash. It can feel like I MUST GET THIS RESOLVED
RIGHT NOWBECAUSE I AM SOCONFLICTED. At least that is the way I felt – and I don’t know it would calm down unless I left the church. I didn’t and at this point I am glad I didn’t. One other point is that I think you have tried to swallow the whole enchilada at once. I have read the “Letter to a CES director” (I assume that is what you are talking about) twice and I have not found much else that get’s any “worse”. Since I have studied and more and more I actually find some positive things.
So I really feel sorry for you as it was one of the most painful periods in my life, but at least for me – I am in a much more calm place. I am still working on this journey and I am in no great hurry to resolve this. I honestly feel that God doesn’t want me to just figure this out in 2 weeks and then be done with it.
Do lean on this site for a bit for help.
Eternity4me wrote:How do you all do it and overlook such glaring issues?
Welcome to staylds. This site has helped me a great deal. I come here almost every day but unfortunately I just don’t have time to post very much.
I don’t overlook the glaring issues. I recognize them and confide to a very small number of people the extent of my doubts. Having an outlet does help. I’ve given up trying to justify all the issues in my mind and much like others have said, I mentally accept the good and I try to discard what I can’t stomach. I’ve accepted the LDS church as my tribe that does a lot of good things that I love and support. I stay involved a great deal in the church trying to do what I can to make people’s lives easier and happier. Like you explain, if I were to leave the church altogether my life would be a great deal more miserable and the lives of the people I love would also fall apart. It’s just not worth it so I’ve chosen to stay here and focus on the good and improve the church in my own little sphere.
Even though I’m in a leadership position I usually avoid publically opining on doctrinal or historical issues (except to correct hurtful teachings) – and nobody seems to question my faithfulness.
Take it slow. Don’t dump (all the gospel/church) at once. Focus on what you do believe. Two things that were most helpful to me in transitioning from crisis:
1. Try to separate the church and the gospel. That is a hard task, and it’s not totally possible – but they are two distinct entities (which happen to be intertwined). The gospel, however, does live independent of the church and the reverse is not so.
2. Let go of the false teaching of “if/then” that some in the church teach and hold to. If Joseph Smith was a prophet it does not necessarily follow that the Book of Mormon or the church are true and vice versa. The dominoes do not necessarily fall. Joseph can be a prophet with or without the BoM, and the BoM could be the word of God without JS.
I hope this does not take away from the good advice DarkJedi, but let me add my own twist.
DarkJedi wrote:1. Try to separate the church and the gospel.
Even before my faith crisis, I had already formulated that there were 3 things: the gospel, the church and it’s administrative corporate structure, and Mormon culture.
The way I see it the first is perfect. The last two have good and bad (on some subjects more bad than good) – but they both help lots of people most of the time (and hurt some people some of the time).
Welcome Eternity. Ugh, I found that CES letter early on too (I’m all but certain that is the one you are talking about) and it was difficult. I was pretty angry at the time. You are getting good advice here with the “take it slow” counsel. That helps immensely. If you are like me, it did prompt more searching, reading, and pondering and personally, I tried really hard to do that while keeping a very open mind (difficult to do, given what we learn throughout life in Church).
Hope you benefit from participating here. I have found this group both caring and supportive.
Eternity4me wrote:How do you all do it and overlook such glaring issues?
I think in time you will come to realize how many of us do not “overlook” issues, but we come to understand them in a deeper way and allow humans to be human. If we could sit down and have a lengthy conversation, going over each issue raised in that letter – I think you would find that we don’t have to reject the “problems” and say they are no problem …but most of them can be removed from the most negative light that they appear in when first discovered. I personally don’t find the assumptions implied in the letter to be the most objective, there is much more depth and perspective that can be added through further study. I have been studying these issues (as time permits) for many years now, and just last week I came across information that has caused me to soften a position and realize I had part of the story wrong. We long for heroes and villains, but true heroes and true villains are extremely rare. Every human being has both good and bad, and as a rule we can find evidence for both in everyone.
I heard a local leader say once that our church leaders are not extraordinary men – they are ordinary men with an extraordinary calling – that most of them do to the best of their (limited) ability. I think we as a church culture do them a disservice when we expect them to be more than ordinary men.
Eternity4me wrote:I am literally sick to my stomach and can’t talk about this with anyone. It is truly frightening. It’s like my foundation that was getting a little rocky is literally crumbling around me.
I feel for you because I have felt similarly. I’d describe it as spiritual death, and death
ispainful. I love the hope that the teachings surrounding the resurrection bring into our lives. I might also say that I have experienced (or at least strive for) a spiritual rebirth or a spiritual resurrection. Just as with the body the spirit comes out the other end in a more perfect state… but the process does require death. Further extending the body=spirit comparison, after our spirits are reborn there’s a time where we may become dependent again (at least for me). We might have to start out crawling before we can walk again. That’s where I feel like this site helped me. I found people that had experience, I found ears that were patient enough to listen, I heard calming voices. Without seeing examples of other people walking I don’t know how long I would have spent crawling.
I think others have drawn comparisons to a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. I wonder what the butterfly thinks and feels as it struggles to emerge from the cocoon? I wonder if it knows that its life isn’t coming to an end but only beginning.
Eternity4me wrote:Can the gospel be true if JS didn’t translate the plates? With all the questions that surround the BoM, and the actual history that seems to cast so much doubt, can I really stay LDS? Do I have to turn my back on logic and historical evidence in order to embrace the gospel?
This goes along with DJ’s comment on separating the church from the gospel… remember, the gospel was true before Joseph Smith translated the plates. The gospel was true before Joseph Smith was even born. This might only shift the question to the church, can the church be true… Why the LDS church then? To tell the truth I don’t know… but the church was
instrumentalin getting me this far… and since I’m not done with my journey it seems like as good a vantage point as any from which to postulate. Eternity4me wrote:How do you all do it and overlook such glaring issues?
I reached a point where I was tired of the issues having so much power over me. I decided to take the power back. As to the details… I don’t know. I think it’s different for everyone and it takes time. I wish I could be of more help.
Side note: I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading
allof the comments in this tread. Eternity4me wrote:When I started my faith crisis a few months ago I told myself that the bottom line for me was that I knew that Joseph Smith could not have made up the Book of Mormon If the BoM was true, the gospel has to be true, even if JS is flawed. After reading this letter late into the night, I know wonder about the BoM.
I now look at the BoM as a sort of parable. It has some good concepts and settles many of the theological arguments that were floating around in the day of JS. I sometimes find it helpful to read it as though the characters were real people, even though I believe that they weren’t. I know that this would require a pretty major paradigm change about what it means for the church and the BoM to be “true” and that will not happen overnight. I know that for some – if the book is not historical then it has no value (my own DW is one of these people and she comes to her perspective honestly).
I do think it is helpful to note that the BoM cannot be proven or disproven scientifically. There is enough evidence that if you wish to believe in it (whatever form that belief may take), you can build a case for that belief. OTOH, I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to convince anyone that does not wish to believe. I think this is important because the people that hold tight to the BoM and those that see it as pure fantasy are all reasonably justified in their opinions. They share the “truth” as they understand it.
For me, I can no longer frame my belief in a literal BoM as a historical account of ancient peoples. I can continue to believe in other ways – that still fit with my framework and understandings and hopes for what may be. I work to nurture my faith in what I can and do hope for (even if that is different than my neighbors).
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