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November 19, 2014 at 4:58 pm #209339
Anonymous
GuestInteresting article at BCC: http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/11/19/byu-religious-freedom-or-its-lack-and-beards ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/11/19/byu-religious-freedom-or-its-lack-and-beards This is one of those things where I read this and just shake my head and wonder why I try to stick around. We (the Church) does the I am Mormon campaign and Meet the Mormons movie in an effort to say “hey look at us, we’re not weird and intolerant. We’re like everyone else, look how cool we are.” And then on the flip side enact policies that just don’t make it past the common sense test.
If anyone has something constructive to say about this, would love to hear it. I am more venting on this one than being positive about it.
-SBRed
November 19, 2014 at 5:46 pm #291978Anonymous
GuestI went to BYU for a summer. I was a senior at UNLV and an RM. I drove all night to get to BYU. The registrar asked me if I had shaved that morning. When I responded that I hadn’t she refused to register me until I came back clean shaven. I half thought that it was a joke.
I honestly had not read the honor code in detail.
For me this was a simple and easily fixed mistake. For the young man from India that must shave or give up his college admission and student visa it must be “a rock and a hard place.”
I think part of the reason BYU is like this is that it is seen as a safe place to send your kids to school where they won’t expirament with sex or weed. The school sdministrators might view themselves somewhat like chaperones of silly, unruly, mistake prone teenagers that must be protected from themselves.
November 19, 2014 at 5:57 pm #291979Anonymous
GuestI think you make a good point – and both of my sons who have gone there (one currently and one on mission deferment) would agree with the article. Likewise, they would both agree that the church’s attempts at late to try to show we’re just normal people would include people with beards. In my area there is a bishop with a beard (goatee), and two (sometimes three) high councilors with facial hair. None are seen as unworthy to serve. Very closely related to this is BYU’s policy of not selling caffeinated soda on campus. There is absolutely no religious reason for either of these policies and these are some of the things Pres. Uchtdorf refers to: Quote:Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.”
I’m probably just venting with you, SBRed, but I find things like this ridiculous. Yes, they know about and agree to the beard policy when they apply. That doesn’t make the policy the right thing to do.
November 19, 2014 at 6:11 pm #291980Anonymous
GuestRoy wrote:The school sdministrators might view themselves somewhat like chaperones of silly, unruly, mistake prone teenagers that must be protected from themselves.
Wait – I thought that was BYU-I where they don’t fully believe in freeagency?

I thought the caffeine ban was lifted, but it looks like what I had heard was just a mistake
I know my son wouldn’t touch the stuff before he went to BYU. Then he sent me a video of them stacking empty cans to completely cover someone’s dorm door. Almost every can was caffeinated.http://utahvalley360.com/2014/03/27/new-byu-president-doesnt-mean-new-policy-about-caffeine/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://utahvalley360.com/2014/03/27/new-byu-president-doesnt-mean-new-policy-about-caffeine/ I think the desire for being clean shaven is due to the churches investment holdings in Gillette and Bic.
November 19, 2014 at 6:54 pm #291981Anonymous
GuestIt’s as if the board of trustees at BYU got together and said “What can we do to drive the most Millenials out of the church?” Then they settled into a nice long brainstorming session with a “there are no out of bounds ideas” mantra and proceeded to implement every last one of them. November 19, 2014 at 7:29 pm #291982Anonymous
GuestWhile at BYU in the 1990s one of my friends was a Sikh and attended classes with me – he had a religion beard exemption. So at least one person 20 years ago was allowed to have a beard for religious reasons. But to the broader point – I tend to agree that it’s a silly rule. There are lots of silly rules at BYU and while I usually shake my head when I hear people make this comment – it’s what makes BYU BYU. No caffeine, no rated R movies on campus, no shorts / skirts above the knee, all alienate perfectly fine students. Tremendous pressure to conform. BYU-I is even worse. One of my counselors has a beard and when getting his ecclesiastical endorsement for Pathway Program he asked if he could keep his beard. This coming from a successful businessman, active and dedicated member of the church wondering if he can have a small beard to take evening classes. Just silly.
On the other hand. I used to be an MBA recruiter on the east coast at prestigious colleges and I have to say I saw some real doozies. I always thought it a bit of a disconnect that students were paying hundreds of thousands of dollards for graduate degrees but they dress like complete slouches. I attended a few classes between interviews and presentations and I have to say I found clean-cut BYU to be attractive.
I suspect it’s an effort by the board of trustees to set BYU apart from other colleges and an opportunity for students to show some self discipline while the cost of education is largely funded by tithe payers who will never reap the rewards of a top-notch, inexpensive education.
November 19, 2014 at 7:39 pm #291983Anonymous
GuestRoadrunner wrote:While at BYU in the 1990s one of my friends was a Sikh and attended classes with me – he had a religion beard exemption. So at least one person 20 years ago was allowed to have a beard for religious reasons.
But to the broader point – I tend to agree that it’s a silly rule. There are lots of silly rules at BYU and while I usually shake my head when I hear people make this comment – it’s what makes BYU BYU. No caffeine, no rated R movies on campus, no shorts / skirts above the knee, all alienate perfectly fine students. Tremendous pressure to conform. BYU-I is even worse. One of my counselors has a beard and when getting his ecclesiastical endorsement for Pathway Program he asked if he could keep his beard. This coming from a successful businessman, active and dedicated member of the church wondering if he can have a small beard to take evening classes. Just silly.
On the other hand. I used to be an MBA recruiter on the east coast at prestigious colleges and I have to say I saw some real doozies. I always thought it a bit of a disconnect that students were paying hundreds of thousands of dollards for graduate degrees but they dress like complete slouches. I attended a few classes between interviews and presentations and I have to say I found clean-cut BYU to be attractive.
I suspect it’s an effort by the board of trustees to set BYU apart from other colleges and an opportunity for students to show some self discipline while the cost of education is largely funded by tithe payers who will never reap the rewards of a top-notch, inexpensive education.
Yeah, I don’t think its a terrible idea to be well groomed. The big issue with this is taking away the religious exemption. For an organization that proclaims their belief in religious freedom, IMHO it is a contrary position to not allow others who attend your church school to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience. We just put out a video highlighting how other religions have outward manifestations of their faith (the garments video) and then we turn around and say, well, it doesn’t quite line up with what we want so no more facial hair. I must confess, I find it infuriatingly dumb. We are often times our own worst enemy.
-SBRed
November 19, 2014 at 8:01 pm #291984Anonymous
GuestHi SBR – I agree. To clarify my post, I think it’s harmful and hypocritical to not have a religious exception to the beard requirement. I went on BYU’s honorcode website and found you can have a beard for medical reasons. I’m hoping lack of religious exception is a short lived policy or perhaps a decision by a mid level administrator that wasn’t vetted thoroughly. November 19, 2014 at 8:16 pm #291985Anonymous
GuestSunbeltRed wrote:I don’t think its a terrible idea to be well groomed. The big issue with this is taking away the religious exemption.
Exactly. I sure hope BYU leaders don’t decide to dig in their heals on this one. This isn’t a battle even worth having. Let’s hope that it is just a few days and sanity will prevail.
Part of me wants to tell my kids attending, “give it to the man!” – but the other side of me says, “watch what you do at BYU as some staunch TBM’s may turn you in and get you in all kind of trouble for doing something that is NOTHING at another university.”
November 19, 2014 at 8:30 pm #291986Anonymous
GuestQuote:We (the Church) does the I am Mormon campaign and Meet the Mormons movie in an effort to say “hey look at us, we’re not weird and intolerant. We’re like everyone else, look how cool we are.” And then on the flip side enact policies that just don’t make it past the common sense test.
In the past few years I find myself reluctant to “sustain” leadership by the “raise of the right hand.” I am no longer clear who I am sustaining – Micheal Otterson and Co. or the First Presidency. That distinction is super important to me right now. Most of the time I purposefully find the need to be reading or something during that part – my emotions are too raw otherwise.
November 19, 2014 at 8:58 pm #291987Anonymous
GuestI had heard of the medical exemption, I figured a religious exemption was a given. Sigh. What I see is a school policy that goes directly against one of the school’s articles of faith.
Quote:We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
How can it hold up under scrutiny?
Much like the author the only justification that comes to mind is that people might fake belonging to a religion just so they can have a beard.
Deny someone the ability to adhere to their religion because some people might take advantage of an exemption? It’s a poor justification. I hope that’s not the reason.
- The author mentions how only 1.3% of BYU students are non-members. They narrow down the potential exemptions to about 212 people (non-member and male). I think that’s still a little high. Not every non-member male is going to belong to a religion that has facial hair as an tenet of their religion.
- If there are many people that are willing to
faketheir own religion so they can have a beard… time for the beard policy to go bye-bye. Seriously. - I’m sure there are fakers on the medical exemption list. Heck, I’d try to get on it.
I’m super curious as to how the no beard policy is enforced. Do campus police stop people with beards that are walking around on campus and demand to see their medical exemption cards?
😆 I’m guessing that students largely police themselves, if an enrolled student’s stubble gets too long they get reported and called to an honor court.I see the no religious exemption rule changing quickly. The global beard policy, not so much.
November 19, 2014 at 9:24 pm #291988Anonymous
Guestnibbler wrote:I had heard of the medical exemption, I figured a religious exemption was a given. Sigh.
What I see is a school policy that goes directly against one of the school’s articles of faith.
Quote:We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
How can it hold up under scrutiny?
Much like the author the only justification that comes to mind is that people might fake belonging to a religion just so they can have a beard.
Deny someone the ability to adhere to their religion because some people might take advantage of an exemption? It’s a poor justification. I hope that’s not the reason.
- The author mentions how only 1.3% of BYU students are non-members. They narrow down the potential exemptions to about 212 people (non-member and male). I think that’s still a little high. Not every non-member male is going to belong to a religion that has facial hair as an tenet of their religion.
- If there are many people that are willing to
faketheir own religion so they can have a beard… time for the beard policy to go bye-bye. Seriously. - I’m sure there are fakers on the medical exemption list. Heck, I’d try to get on it.
I’m super curious as to how the no beard policy is enforced. Do campus police stop people with beards that are walking around on campus and demand to see their medical exemption cards?
😆 I’m guessing that students largely police themselves, if an enrolled student’s stubble gets too long they get reported and called to an honor court.I see the no religious exemption rule changing quickly. The global beard policy, not so much.
But it may be hard to fake being a member of another religion – all students regardless of religion still need an ecclesiastical endorsement. The way to tip toe around that is, of course, to use the option of the local bishop no matter what your religion (as opposed to using your own minister, the other option). And those medical exemption cards are
extremelyhard to get from what I understand. My sons have told me that stubble for the most part is not enforced, although some professors will “turn you in” for it. Bishops are charged with enforcing it, and you can’t do some things on campus (like get an ID card) with any stubble (not an exaggeration, happened to a kid in my ward – they made him shave and come back for his picture for a two day growth on a very blond kid). Students do largely police themselves, and I do remember my older son saying something about RAs being involved as well.
November 19, 2014 at 9:29 pm #291989Anonymous
GuestSo what happens during “Movember”? Can no one on campus participate? Or is there a month long suspension of the policy? November 19, 2014 at 9:35 pm #291990Anonymous
GuestMeh Mormon wrote:So what happens during “Movember”? Can no one on campus participate? Or is there a month long suspension of the policy?
Since there are no shorts allowed…you don’t have to shave your legs.
November 19, 2014 at 9:53 pm #291991Anonymous
GuestI apologize in advance but the title of the thread is “Beards and BUY” after all. SunbeltRed, you think your vent was bad I don’t get it. Okay, so I’m not exactly in the minority even among general membership in the church but still, I don’t get it. Are we still stuck in the 50s? Are we still afraid of beatniks?
The whole thing is very Pharisaical to me. Not too long ago the president of BYU-Idaho commented on his concerns over seeing people on campus that were wearing pants that were hemmed 4 inches above the ankle. He also mentioned that some men were not clean shaven. It truly feels like the standards at BYU-Idaho are what they are just so they can one up BYU’s honor code.
Here’s the other thing. It contributes towards making people judgmental. There can be a reward of sorts for the people that are concerned with finding these motes; people that feel it is their duty to keep everyone else in line can be the cream that rises to the top. I believe this belongs in the “put others down to lift yourself up” category. Unfortunately sometimes that attitude gets rewarded. It’s not doing the person playing the role of peer police any favors at all, in fact it’s harming them… IMO of course.
I was exposed to these types of things while I was in the MTC. At that point in my life I hadn’t been a member of the church for very long so I probably stood out from the culture like a sore thumb. Several people let me know that in a mean spirit. I was also much older than your average missionary so it was like water off a duck’s back. All the same it would be better for all involved to distance ourselves from practices that can nourish mean spiritedness.
I just don’t believe that beards or the length of our pants are genuine outward signs of inward commitments. For that matter, how does an inward commitment ever reach outward to other people’s commitments? Argh.
I’m not too proud of those opinions but they are latent feelings I have. I’m not a student at any of the BYUs, this issue doesn’t even affect me, I don’t know why I get emotionally invested about this issue. Why yes, sometimes I do have a beard
…but it’s a very take it or leave it thing.
One parting question if you made it this far. Can someone doing distance education at BYU wear shorts or have a beard?
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