Do you Believe in Christmas?

I use this very conundrum as one of my key reasons I stay. I believe in Christmas. My husband finds it a questionable answer, but it works for me and others when they think about it.

I can pull the entire Nativity/Magi story apart, heck I grew up in the Church that claimed April 6 as Christ’s real birthday, so paradigm shifting on that not a problem. That’s also where I think Mormonism will continue to move forward, as generations get a different story line they will move along just fine.

For me Christmas tugs at a spirituality I can’t replace. It may all be emotion based, memory filled, and totally factless – but it works for me. So yes I believe, yes I stay. All that changes is how I practice both of them.

I’ll share a little story about how deeply vested in the birth narrative I was. Who knows, maybe there’s still some meaning in it for me.

At one point I fixated on the star that appeared. I thought that it was interesting, all the timing had to be perfect. A star was created some distance away and it had to be created at some point in time prior to the birth of Christ. The planning was meticulous; careful enough to ensure that the light from the star, which was spanning space at the speed of light, would eventually reach Earth at the precise moment it was needed to announce Christ’s birth.

I even allowed myself the concession that it was a comet, supernova, a conjunction of planets, etc. instead of a star. The timing issues of it all were still valid. It was real to me.

From the article:

Do virgin births really occur anywhere except in mythology and fairy tales?

It happens this Fall on the CW. Set your DVRs. :angel:

Thanks for sharing the article. I agree with many points but I think people would do well to extend these same types of thought beyond just the birth narrative. If there’s more power in pondering the symbols then think how much more all scripture opens up, not just the birth narrative.

If it is history that we desire, then let me state that the overwhelming probability is that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem but in Nazareth of Galilee. The whole Bethlehem tradition was quite clearly a much later attempt to interpret Jesus as the heir of David and thus the anticipated messianic figure who would arise out of the line of David, and whose prophesied birthplace would be Bethlehem.

Time to revisit the argument over the Book of Mormon claiming Jesus was born in Jerusalem? :angel:

One line in the article made my head spin (emphasis mine):

It is also clear from a study of early Christian documents that early Jewish critics of Jesus and the Jesus movement made similar charges, even suggesting that Jesus was the child of a Roman soldier (whether by rape or by consent is not always clear). Perhaps the virgin-birth tradition was born as a Christian defense against such charges. Those are the facts of history; beyond them, we can say little more.

There are volumes and volumes of books written on the historical Jesus and other volumes and volumes of books written on whether Jesus was divine. Some scholars agree. Some disagree. In short we can’t often agree on the “facts.” Plus I couldn’t quite get at what the author of the article was making reference to when they wrote “those are the facts” This statement comes immediately after the author’s supposition that the virgin birth claims were in defense to criticisms levied against Jesus. They lost me on that one.

Allow me to slice and dice the article for a moment:

Did it really happen? Or are these narratives a kind of religious Santa Claus story, not meant to be taken literally?

For most of the first 1,700 years of Christian history, the unchallenged answer to each of these inquiries would have been a resounding yes. Human beings lived then in a prescientific world of miracle and magic. The faith story, rooted as it was in the past, wove into its central fabric tales of wonder without either hesitation or embarrassment. But in the last 400 years of Western history, we have experienced an enormous intellectual revolution that has changed dramatically the way we view the world in which we live.

When one goes deeply into these texts, it also becomes obvious that even the original authors of Matthew and Luke never intended their stories to be accounts of something that actually happened. That is something Western believers have imposed on these biblical texts.

IMO there’s the real story. Interpretations evolve over time. In a thousand more years humanity may view things in some other way that may be foreign to us now. A relatively recent event may be born out of literalism, live and die on the grapevines of life, and later resurrect as myths that carry deeper meaning. The life cycle of major events that affect large portions of humanity?

And did this view develop prior to changes in your view of church and church history, or along with that some faith transition?

Great question Heber – It began before FC, yet looking back I sense that a Faith or Practice Transition was almost in Gods plan for me. It’s weird to say but there are marker moments and this is one of them.

My kids attended a public school with largely evangelical kids, the year The Nativity Movie came out the kids were all wired with debate points about the authenticity of the movie. One such conversation happened in our home. I only listened but the debate was in the idea that the Nativity didn’t happen in December.

At the time I was fully TBM, and I smugly thought – we knew it years ago. April 6. Days later I realized the paradox in our situation. As Mormons’ we love to be unique – so why didn’t we go off and create a Mormon Christmas where we “truly” honored Christ’s birthday. It was my first real wrestle. Eventually I concluded that it didn’t matter when the real birthday was because being a Christian we should be honoring Him with the gifts of our life everyday. And since I had deep fond memories of December Christmas – I would be fine letting it remain.

On a side note I wish the church would encourage local wards and stakes to put aside regular Sunday lessons, talks, etc and make December a Christmas/Christ blow out. Seriously.

There’s a great scene in the movie ‘Saved’ (I recommend it if you haven’t seen it), where the pregnant Christian teenage girl says something to the effect “Maybe Mary just got knocked up and so she made up the story about getting pregnant..I don’t think she did but I can understand why someone would.”

This thread made me think of that scene.

Found this quote from Pope Benedict XVI in his book “Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives”: Talking about probable later additions into the Noel story and how the animals and magi’s insertion into the story served important purposes for the early church (i.e. even the animals and the great kings of the east recognized Jesus as divine) he says, “The aim of the evangelists was not to produce an exhaustive account, but a record of what seemed important for the nascent faith community in the light of the word.”

I was also reading an MSNBC article about the Bible Project and wanted to share a portion here:

But the ongoing work of the academic detectives of the Bible Project, as their undertaking is known, shows that this text at the root of Judaism, Christianity and Islam was somewhat fluid for long periods of its history, and that its transmission through the ages was messier and more human than most of us imagine…. “A believing Jew claims that the source of the Bible is prophecy,” said the project’s bearded academic secretary, Rafael Zer. “But as soon as the words are given to human beings — with God’s agreement, and at his initiative — the holiness of the biblical text remains, even if mistakes are made when the text is passed on.”

For those that are interested in the full article it can be found here: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44117239/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/?gt1=43001

We also had a good thread about a similar topic back in 2011: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2310&hilit=+pope

I personally like Christmas – though I try to minimize the Santa part. (kids get 1 santa gift and it is not to be the main one)

I’m agnostic about the story as well. But as a possible myth, I like the idea of a powerful leader born in a stable, the humility Christ’s birth depicts, how Joseph supported Mary in her pregnancy. And those you who know my background, know that my daughter has a lot in common with the concept of a virgin birth. Given how good and kind she is (controlling for teenagerism), every time I hear of the story of Mary’s conception, I think of my daughter’s pure heart.

Accurate or not, the Christmas story is a great story about humility and sacrifice and it adds a sense of wonder to the season. Perhaps it can be thought of akin to the story of Santa Claus. It may not be true but it sure makes Christmas fun when you’re a kid. I wouldn’t trade those memories for anything. And I wouldn’t trade my memories of the more holy Christmases I have spent. A holiday dedicated to thinking of others and giving to others (even if it gets a tad overblown by merchandising) is to me a good thing. So I am comfortable celebrating Christmas and would continue to even if I came across incontrovertible evidence that the whole story was made up.