How would you respond?

I guess it depends on the status especially depth of your friendship. It may be that the best you can do is to sidestep his comments about the brethren’s actions all being divinely revealed and just comment about the good the organization is doing and your interest in being a part of that. If it’s worth the friendship to go into it further you could point out that Jesus’ intervention with Paul is very different than what comes from the prophet(s) in the form of direction and that there’s no logical connection in having to link the two. And if you want to get snarky you could mention no facial hair for temple workers, Franklin Richards promise that the Willy Martin handcart companies would be fine and only one set of pierced ears. For what it’s worth…

I think your comment that you stay in large part for the sake of your family should have been enough. Why would someone question that? Beyond that, I might have said, “Why does it matter so much to you if I stay or not? I would think that as my friend, you’d be happy that I still come to church for whatever reason.” But that’s just me.

I read your question earlier at church but didn’t want to respond on my phone. I was going to say something like what Ray said but he beat me to it. Generally speaking, when I encounter black-and-white-thinking-TBM types I let it go, change the subject and/or move on. I haven’t always been able to to this, so it progress for me. It’s not my job to convert anyone to my way of thinking and they’re not going to convert me. FWIW, I think most TBMs fear unorthodoxy (or doubt or questioning, whatever they call it) more than anything, perhaps for no other reason than that they might be wrong.

He asked me why I even bother to stay in the church given some of my negative attitudes about it.

I would probably be internally analyzing what things I do that send negative vibes or attitudes to him or to others, and if those are few and far between, or if those outshine the positive attitudes and vibes I send to my friend or the group. So, I guess my response would be talking about the things I love, and the wise words of our leaders, and how it helps me in my life. Not in a dishonest or tricky way…but sincerely my focus on the good, despite the bad. Where else would I go (and quote John 6:67-?

Some things in the church are hard, but I do not leave because they are hard…I learn from it. And so I would focus on if his question about negativity is a call to me on if I am become overly negative, and how I might take that into consideration. I might even thank him as a friend for pointing it out to me.

We usually explain it in non-religious terms like fantastic kids programs, community involvement, and building bridges. That way we are controlling the conversation away from what we may find lacking in our LDS experience.

:thumbup:

He actually flared up at me when I shared what I thought was a positive statement about the church — at least, I THOUGHT it was positive. I commented how I found the standards of interpersonal behavior were higher in the church than what I experienced in two community organizations. How I found a greater readiness for people to gossip about and backbite others in the non-member community than in the church. That it was a credit to the church and its teachings about relationships being important.

But then, I blew it when I told him this — that I found the non-profit, community organizations I worked with suffered from the same tendencies toward organizational egocentrism that I had seen in the church. That I found it was not unique to the church, but a problem in all organizations — that they often let temporal concerns and organizational interests supplant the higher mission. I cited an example in the one community organization in which I was involved.

This really made him angry for some reason…he said that it lowered the church to the level of any wordly organization, and was not a positive from his perspective.

I eventually admitted that the experiences I have in the church make a lot more sense when I look at the church the same way I do any other temporal organization. That I don’t see the leadership and church itself attached at the hip to God and Jesus. And that when I stop expecting the church as an organization, its leaders, and its people from somehow being larger than life due to covenants, higher principles, divine comissions, and high ideals etcetera, it makes a lot more sense. And I can accept it better — albeit, keeping all of those unorthodox beliefs to myself. I also commented that I find it ironic that the church can demand huge sacrifices from myself given its truth claims, but yet, seems not to live up to those standards itself….

Anyway, that was my mistake. Time to steer clear of church and gospel related matters with this gentleman. I value his friendship of 20 years, and if anything will kill it, it will be my own unorthodox beliefs.

What do you think this says about him?

I called him two days later to make amends. He was thankful for the call. We decided to set boundaries on our conversations. He expressed a few things he would like to do together at some point, which was cool. He committed to stop bashing something non-church related that he’s fallen into doing. Ended by telling me to call more often.

it’s christlike behavior like this, from both ends, that restores, somewhat my confidence in religion. The biggest benefit I see to religion is that it creates a “relationship consciousness” which helps people live together harmoniously, sometimes in spite of deep differences on issues that really matter to them.

Heber — your assessment is right. He does see it as supernatural, above the world, etcetera. He has experiences that have led him to that conclusion, like many people. You are right about it generally. And my own approach offended him deeply….glad we had a good talk last night and have moved past it. It’s a touchy topic now…i have to deal with him the same way I do my spouse, or local people who are likely to be offended by unorthodox ideas.