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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/us/john-dehlin-mormon-critic-facing-excommunication.html Part of me knew this was coming. Disappointed but not surprised.
:problem: I agree that I am not completely surprised. The organization of the church has the right to deliniate and enforce its own boundaries. Kate Kelly was somewhat more cut and dry because she formed a movement. John is a little different because he is providing forums and microphones for various movements and voices that may be critical of the church. However John has also crossed the line several times and not remained just an impartial interviewer. The article claims that he is a supporter of Ordain Women and same sex marriage rather than just being sympathetic of these groups. At what point can a producer/interviewer/forum host be held responsible for the content of their forum. At what point does John become a sort of figurehead or spokeman for these critical viewpoints. It would seem that some people in church leadership are connecting dots that suggest that John stands in an adversarial position to the church. The NY times article does not mince any words in calling John a “Mormon critic.”
The excommunication may not happen of course. This is not the first time we have been down this road. Going to the media can be a double edged sword. I believe that in some cases it causes the church to be extra cautious – sometimes to the effect of not moving forward with discipline. In other cases it strengthens the church’s resolve to move forward.
Quote:“if given the choice between denying my conscience and facing excommunication, I’d much rather be excommunicated.”
I do not believe this quote will do John any favors.
I’d just say, Thanks, John, for the 500+ podcasts. Taken as a whole, they’ve helped me stay. I can’t say I’m really surprised, either. I’ll just note that there are other possible outcomes to church disciplinary councils – excommunication is not the only avenue open. I think that will in large part depend upon John’s demeanor. Nice thought Dark Jedi, but I don’t think it will be anything less than an excommunication. The church as a leadership is tired, the won’t close blogs or Sunstone or Dialogue, but I think the only way they feel they can keep some balance is by closing particular doors. This is one of the biggies. I believe this one will hurt far more people than Kate Kelly’s did and like Ann said there are many people who have remained in the church because of John, shutting him out may have disastrous repercussions. The pain from and fall out from Kate’s excommunication still exists.
Handcart pulling is going to get a lot harder.
I wonder how these events will look in 50 years?
For anyone interested in sharing their positive feelings about John’s work you can share your story on his face book page. He has a request out if you like. Quote:Looking for a person who feels like I’ve helped them stay active in the church who is willing to speak with a reporter. Please don’t message me. Just post the reply here. Then I will contact you. Thanks in advance.
John gave a status a few months ago and after I read that I thought, “well john is going to be x’ed” I am sad, but I can’t see anything but him being x’ed.
I will be down big time when it happens.
Looks like the Founder of “StayLDS” is leaving the building…………………. I’ve said for a long time that John has been bi-polar in his actions. He has been in and out so many times I stopped keeping count. I really like and respect him, but this has been coming for a long, long time. Not to be insensitive, but it is what it is. Also, just to say it clearly, John founded this site, but he has never been an active participant. This is not his site in that sense, even though he started it. It is our site, and that is important to me.
I am sorry to hear they are being proactive in doing this to him. I feel for John. I wish I could go to the press like he wants but there would be too much at stake.
When I read the article about his disciplinary council, I had this thought — that what is happening is a lot like the inquisition. Someone disagrees, criticizes, and you punish them.
With how pervasive negativity and criticism is about the church on the Internet, I don’t see the point of doing this to John this time.
I still think there’s a decent chance he is not ex’d, but like Ray, I know John has been back & forth on this issue, and to reiterate what Ray said, John may have set up the site, but from the inception, Brian & Ray and some of the rest of us have modded and participated. It was never a place he participated. His work has been more podcast driven; that’s his medium of choice. I have met many people in my travels who talked about the importance of John’s podcasts to them in helping them sort out the complexity of church history and doubts. I am deeply disturbed about him probably being exed. The list given for his disciplinary court is really hard for me to see because I agree with him in almost all points. It makes me feel like there is no room for me in the church. Really sad. His podcasts helped me SO much. I do agree that he seems bipolar about being in or out but I do not feel that any of his actions should result in excommunication. I am I the only one thinking that? I have several problems with church history. I sympathize with all his lgbt thoughts and to some extent Kate kelly. AaaaAaargh. So sad.
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Bear – my husband is with you on this. We talked a lot tonight and I am beginning to see it from where he is. For the record he used the same words you did. “If there is no room in the church for John Dehlin then there sure as he$$ no room for me or my kids.” Bear you are not alone.
Thanks. That is really nice to hear! It feels like it might as well be me who was called to a disciplinary court. I am really sad. I love the gospel. I love many parts of the church’s. I love the community. I highly dislike the church’s stance on lgbt issues. I have deep problems with a couple of historical things, (boa, polygamy) but not any issues with many other things that a lot of other people have problems with regarding church history. I go to church because I love talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ. I love serving others etc. In many ways I can relate to John (and in some cases not) but if he is not welcome then why should I be. If I could only say “it’s only local church leaders!” But I cannot believe that in this case only local leaders are involved. Too much of the church public image is at stake for them just leaving the John dealing case to any church leader. If the people at the top feel like this then I sincerely don’t feel welcome anymore. I don’t care what other people in the pew think about my beliefs. And given the recent “big tenting” of Mormonism I always felt welcome even though I was unorthodox. Not so much anymore. Oh gosh. I’m a big tent guy, too, Bear. I’m not sure we can compare ourselves to anyone else, though. While I’m not sure exactly where the line is, I am sure there is a line between unorthodoxy and apostasy. Admittedly, some of where that line is depends on leadership roulette. I agree with much of what John Dehlin has posted on his site. Nevertheless, I don’t have such things posted on my own site and nobody knows the depths of my doubts or questions but me and perhaps God. I’m not much of a podcast kinda guy, I don’t have time to listen to them. I do understand that John’s podcasts have been helpful to many people. For me, interacting here has been the greatest help. So while I see similarities in beliefs between John and myself, we are not the same, we are not in full agreement, and we approach things differently.
I really can’t say “if there is no room for [insert name], there is no room for me” about anyone, and frankly I see that approach as dangerous. We are responsible for our own salvation or exaltation or whatever it is we believe – if we tie that to someone else we are damning ourselves.
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