Loving the Church more than Loving Christ

I understand why outsiders can come to the conclusion Mormons don’t believe in Christ. We do talk of Christ, rejoice in Christ, preach of Christ and prophesy of Christ – but not nearly enough and not nearly as much as we should IMO.

Amen.

Many years ago my FC began on Christmas Sunday, I sat through the three hour block, without ever hearing any reference to Christ (with the exception of the standard prayers). I still am bugged about how much the Church low balls Christ.

Since I have returned to activity, I remind myself how lay ministry means people are already spending many hours every week in their callings. I can’t expect them to put on Christmas and Easter shows that can compete with those put together in other churches with a paid staff. So typically, my wife and I attend an Episcopalian service every Christmas and Easter. It’s quite refreshing. But for the other 50 weeks, in the year, I do enjoy sacrament meeting. It’s where I feel God wants me to be.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the church-u-monies. This is by far not the only thing, but it does contribute. Interestingly I had been reflecting on my own ward F&T meeting today as it struck me at the end of the meeting that only one testimony touched on Christ. Granted, that was a good one and was very Christ centered (“I know my Savior lives, He paid for your and my sins,” etc.). The rest were for the most part “I know the church is true, I love this ward, I know we have a prophet, I miss the old bishop but I like the new one too….” Needless to say SM was not great for me today. We didn’t have any investigators present today, but I thought what if we did? What would a first time church goer’s first impression be?

Are all meetings this way? Certainly not, and I don’t believe all members believe this way (I’m personally glad the old bishop is finally out). I think a good deal of it has to do with people opening their mouths and not listening to what they’re saying. I have said this here before, though – I understand why outsiders can come to the conclusion Mormons don’t believe in Christ. We do talk of Christ, rejoice in Christ, preach of Christ and prophesy of Christ – but not nearly enough and not nearly as much as we should IMO.

(FWIW, priesthood meeting was a rehash of last week’s stake priesthood meetings, led by someone who wasn’t there. We didn’t really talk, rejoice, preach or prophesy of Christ in any of those meetings, either.)

This is why I try not to attend F&T anymore. They seem to have devolved into “God helped my find my keys” or “God helped me knit a sweater for my grandson”. Yesterday I spent the day with my wife, and we went grocery shopping and watched Seattle make the most baffling of calls to lose the Big Game. Didn’t miss it at all.

I’m pretty sure leaders think football is directly from the devil. Think about it. Can’t watch on Sunday because of the sabbath. The NFL blesses the people with MNF. In comes FHE. Thursday Night Football. Mutual. Just hope the NFL doesn’t branch out to even more days… I’d hate to see what the church would do to draw people away.

I better post something on topic as well.

The issue gets murky when considering that we’re in an environment where Christ = church. Some people don’t make a distinction between the two.

It’s certainly a thing though, most of the time I spend in church the subject seems to be “the church.” I remember defending the church against people that claimed the LDS church wasn’t christian but after all these years I have to concede that they raised very good points. My perspective has shifted. I think one key difference in helping me make a distinction between Christ and the church was my changing attitudes on Christ having a direct, hands-on approach to leading the church. It might be easier to fall into the trap of church worship if you believe that the church is only responding to direct commands from deity.

I’ll also like to propose that this notion of the focus being the church is entirely human. I have a few niche hobbies and when I get together with other people that are into the same thing that thing dominates the conversation. Sometimes I think “can we just talk about something else for a while?” The church is a niche group as well. We end up talking about church this and church that because that’s the thing that brought us together. Can we just talk about Christ for a while? But seriously, there’s lots of Christians out there so if we want to talk to people in our little group we talk about our specific church because that’s what brings the group together. The reason for the season… of meetings.

I … watched Seattle make the most baffling of calls to lose the Big Game.

Now if that does not make you lose faith in humanity!! I guess it could be faith promoting if you were praying for the Pats.

I guess the church members associated with the Pats are simply more faithful than those associated with the Seahawks. I see no other answer.

No, they just prayed harder, or maybe didn’t break their fasts until after the game was won. :lolno:

The issue gets murky when considering that we’re in an environment where Christ = church. Some people don’t make a distinction between the two.

This is the way I look at it. In the church, salvation is systemic.

In this way of thinking it matters fairly little who is actually calling the church shots from beyond the veil as long as this person is divinely authorized. God could do it directly or delegate the responsibility to Jesus, the HG, or even the ghosts of Peter or Joseph Smith. Whomever that person may be what is important is the role or position that they hold in the system. As long as the divine chain is unbroken then the priesthood line of authority/revelation works and the system maintains saving power to direct and protect those within the system (theoretically this power extends from God at the top all the way down to the ward level with bishops and individual ward leaders/priesthood holders).

That is why I believe other Christians would say that Mormons love the church more than Christ. Mormons do not strictly need a personal relationship with Christ, instead they approach him through a divine system of intermediaries.

From an anthropological perspective it is just a different way to structure the divine presence – but I can understand why some Christian would see it as blasphemous.

While others might accuse mormons of church without Christ or church above Christ, I don’t believe it is what mormons are about, just what others may represent mormons as being when they don’t fully know what mormons believe. Just my observations.

I imagine a scenario of an influential man. One person is his follower and the second is his brother. The follower may study the teachings, precepts, and examples of the influential man and demonstrate devotion by applying those teachings. The brother may have a much more personal relationship, may have alternately played with and fought with his sibling (as brothers are likely to do). Suppose the follower accused the brother of not loving the influential man because he does not study the teachings or apply them rigorously. “How can you really love him if you do not live his teachings?” Suppose the brother accused the follower of not loving the influential man but instead of putting him on a pedestal, making him out to be a two-dimensional white-washed caricature rather than a complete person, and placing the teachings above the man.

Who is right?

Who is right?

The ham sandwich (h/t Brian)