THE main issue?

I have been stewing around with a thought for a while. I read a comment dealing with the FreeBYU effort (the “please stop kicking people out of BYU just because they have a change of faith”) and it said that the effort needs to focus and not be scattered all over the place. With that thought, I have been trying to determine if there is one main issue that is hanging up the church from moving forward.

For the record, the policy at BYU, as stated on the FreeBYU website, affects those whose names are removed from the official records of the Church, which can only happen by excommunication or resignation. We aren’t talking about people who drift away, lose faith, doubt, lose interest… we are talking about those who through a specific action are removed from the Church.

IMO, the ONE issue that prevents the Church from “moving forward” is the intolerance toward the Church by those who leave it.

We, here, talk to each other and find ways to live peacefully with the Church. Sometimes we can get into a myopic illusion that we represent some kind of majority. But nothing could be further from the truth. We are a tiny and non-vocal minority. The Church suffers a great deal from the vitriol aimed at it by the disaffected.

If we lived in a world where people came and went in the Church without causing a stir, it would be much easier for the Church to be accepting of those who leave.

I bring this up, because I think there is an important work that WE can do. It’s fine to wish the Church would change, but it won’t change on its own accord. What WE can do is to offer a calm, respectful, and agreeable alternative to the teachings that we want to be changed. Protests will cause our partners in the Church to entrench. But I’ve had a lot of very productive conversations with devout members of the Church about SSA and SSM. If we can influence our brothers and sisters in the faith, the Church’s tone will continue to change for the better. I believe we have a great opportunity to be agents of change, but the more disconnected we are from the Church, physically or emotionally, the less influence we can have.

On Own – yep – I know that the FreeBYU details and I think it is absolutely just for BYU to charge the non-member rates, but they are not just in holding to transcripts and such.

IMO, the ONE issue that prevents the Church from “moving forward” is the intolerance toward the Church by those who leave it.

I agree for THIS (and the ex-mo/nom) group the way the church and members look at those that leave

Hippo – what to do? Well first define the problem (a bit of what I am trying to do for me), then figure out how to work to change it.

If my thoughts were correct, it is a hard one for ME to change it. About the only thing I have done is talk about how I enjoy conference, but I have to stop and think, “Given that non-truths were taught in the past, I need to pray about all of this to make sure I protect myself from the errors of men.” Makes some people think and some people think I am “out there.” I don’t tell others THEY have to double-check like I do, but I feel the need to do so.

I think it’s hard to say there is one main issue. (DFU: “It is not that simple.”) I don’t disagree that yours is a biggie, but I think there are other biggies.

I find myself not worrying so much about the church and worrying (for lack of a better word at the moment) more about my individual salvation. I have been dissecting the parable of the prodigal son(s) of late, and there’s so much in there. I think in the end it’s very little about the church and very much about us.

I do realize it isn’t that simple (the reason I said, “I am not reverting back to black/white thinking).

I generally also feel less worried about how “the church” views me and more about being a good person and my own salvation. I think I do want to help reduce the pain within the church. Maybe I am fooling myself, but I feel I am not just trying to tear into the church.

The only thing I can affect is me. For all my efforts that is all I can do.

This is closer to what I was really trying to say.

Frankly, we’re such a small minority I’m not sure we can change the church. We can have some minor effect on our own wards and stakes, perhaps, but in the bigger picture all we are is dust in the wind (sing Gilligan’s Island if you want to get rid of the ear worm ). That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try, mind you, nor does it mean I think we should be antagonistic toward the church – just the opposite in fact. I actually think ex-Mormons who become vehement anti-Mormons harm the vast majority of silent ex-Mormons and quiet questioning/doubting members. It is them, IMO, who irk the more orthodox and offend their sensibilities. Gentle persuasion (with love unfeigned) goes much further.

I am more of a pragmatist than an activist.

I watch movies about people that gave up their lives for a cause and it seems to me a pyrrhic or hollow victory. Yes, they were right but at what cost. I am glad that some people doggedly pursue good things and I benefit from their tireless efforts but I am less committed.

I will live my life and raise my children. I will attend and participate. I will home teach, substitute in primary, work with the boy scouts, help people move, etc.

I hope to moderate extremism and fanaticism by my very existence and presence. In rare occasions I may resort to words – not to be adversarial, but just to remind the people in the room that we are a diverse church and not an echo chamber.

My intent is not to change the church but just to authentically live in my own little corner of it.

What I am currently feeling is the main or core issue is the inability to admit mistakes of past leaders (not to mention current leaders). I think the only times I have seen this at all is the Blacks and The Priesthood essay that said past teachings were false (but didn’t give names if I remember right), Bruce R. McConkie saying, “forget all we said on blacks and the priesthood – we were wrong” (don’t think he said “wrong”) and lastly President Uchtdorf saying in conference that leaders have made mistakes. It sure smacks of pride (maybe ETB was preaching more to the church hierarchy than the members? Probably not )

Amen. I see this as a huge issue as well. I have seen it in for-profit, corporate and non-profit contexts, but it doesn’t seem to bother me in those contexts. Why? Because those organizations are not claiming a divine commission, not expecting high levels of commitment and money from me due to that commission, not having a huge impact on my life like the church does, and not claiming to have covenants, that, if not kept, put my salvation at risk. If you, as an organization, are going to claim those things — you better be far better than any temporal organization. And frankly, I don’t see the church as better than the average temporal organization.

I want to add that DHO did apologize for the Mountain Meadows Massacre, although he said “there is no doubt that members of our church were involved. The idea that members of our church would do that to others breaks my heart” — point is, he kept saying “members of our church” although we all know that someone in authority — likely, “divine authority”, ordered the massacre. Otherwise, that many members would NOT have acted out of such unified obedience in direct violation of one of the most serious commandments.

So, yes. I think it’s time leaders at the highest levels put their pride on the shelf, came clean about the mistakes of the organization, and then let the chips fall. Do What Is Right, Let the Consequence Follow.

I do give them credit about the Priesthood Disavowal, Uchdorft’s admission past leaders made mistakes, and coming clean on JS’ polyandry. But with the exception of Uchdorft, it’s all been done in a quiet, “leaking” kind of way.

It’s not enough to me — not for an organization with a “divine commission” that expects so much of me in terms of obedience and character.

What I am currently feeling is the main or core issue is the inability to admit mistakes of past leaders (not to mention current leaders).

Definitely, it’s up there.