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I have a friend From the ward I talk to about gospel stuff. He has a nuanced view of things and is open minded about stuff. We’ve never had a discussion about our personal beliefs or struggles though. I heard him say in church recently that he knew the church was true. I feel like it’s time to let him know that I don’t have a testimony because I don’t want him to think that my advice or opinions come from a place that is still able to nurture a testimony. I want him to know that I have these opinions because I don’t have a testimony and warn him to be careful because this stuff kills marriages. From y’all’s experiences, is there any reason I would regret doing this? Btw, my bishop knows I don’t believe, but nobody else; so I’m not worried about repercussions or my TR being rescinded if my leaders found out.
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Generally speaking, I’m against declarations of belief or unbelief. That’s just me. I like to keep all my options open in life. But based on what you’ve said, I don’t think there’s a real downside in disclosing. I’m with Hawk. Unless this person is an understanding confidant who you think can help you, I’d keep quiet. I also take the point of view that I don’t want to hurt anyone else’s testimony, nor do I want their sympathy. Would you need to make a blanket declaration that you don’t believe the “church is true,” or could you slowly reveal in comments here and there what you do believe? I am also against statements of disbelief. I am in favor of statements of belief, however. The reason I’m against statements of disbelief is the black and white thinking of our members and many of our leaders. Further, statements of disbelief disqualify you from many privileges in our religion, and often, create obstacles to returning to full activity. You also never know when that person you shared your deepest and darkest with becomes a leader, or shares that information with other leaders. I have one friend who I shared deepest and darkest with when he was a Branch President in a different Ward. No problem — I wasn’t under his stewardship. Now he’s in the Stake Presidency.
Best to play it close to the vest. Share the experiences here, what you would have LIKED to have said in those conversations, and learn how to interact successfuly with orthodox members. The bloggernacle is a better place for honesty.
I do a lot of listening & ask a lot of questions before I ever disclose what I believe or don’t believe. Once you “come clean” you can’t take it back.
I eventually had to take the band-aid approach with my Bishop. I felt too dishonest with myself for too long, especially teaching. How I stated it however, was careful. I stated I am not a literal believer. I can appreciate things metaphorically and symbolically, but I have no literal belief in the LDS Church, or much of the scriptures.
They don’t know what to do with me because I still attend, but don’t actively participate because I do not want to detract or disturb people who are there to further their personal beliefs.
Did your Bishop give you any empathy for being honest with him? Mike wrote:Did your Bishop give you any empathy for being honest with him?
Yes. To his credit, he is a wonderful person and appreciated me being straightforward and trying to be open and authentic. However after explaining myself he admitted he had no idea how to approach my issues. He quietly acknowledged that he knew about Joseph not using the plates and so forth, but that he chooses to believe. It’s been nearly two years and I don’t think he even mentioned it to ward council until very recently.
startpoor wrote:I feel like it’s time to let him know that I don’t have a testimony because I don’t want him to think that my advice or opinions come from a place that is still able to nurture a testimony. I want him to know that I have these opinions because I don’t have a testimony and warn him to be careful because this stuff kills marriages.
My comment is meant as food for thought:
Why be cornered into a narrow definition of “testimony”? When I think of that question posed to me – “do you have a testimony” I can’t help but think “Of course I have a testimony! What a silly question, everyone has a point of view, set of experiences or testimony. Mine is unique, that goes without saying. I don’t expect anyone else to view and believe things in exactly the same way that I do, and I assume others will grant me the same space. Some may not, that is true, but that is not my problem or something that I can do anything about.
“I don’t believe” …as a generic stand alone those three words mean absolutely nothing. Nothing. “I don’t believe a flying spaghetti monster lives on the moon.” Fine, that is a specific statement that actually says something. “I don’t believe the church is true” means nothing unless you clearly define “true.”
Even if you start talking about exclusive/literal priesthood authority you then have context to consider of within the church (which I take as a no contest position) or to the entire universe (which is senseless to even try to debate).
I believe. I have faith. …In a great many things. I have faith in the church the same way a parent or friend will have faith in a child or loved one. Not to have faith in an error free life, but to have faith that growth and progress will happen and they will find more of their divinity along the path. I believe the church has truth and is a true tool, the same way a wheel or an arrow may be true. I know it also contains a lot of error, the same way anything on earth that is controlled by mortals will.
I have spend many hours over many years considering the questions: “What destroys testimony?” “What harms marriages?”
Truth will harm a false testimony. I don’t worry about that, where I error I hope to accept correction. Error may cloud truth, to fight that we must always seek to understand more truth, always look in the mirror and strive for the humility to accept that we may be wrong – about anything. My foundation in the church is that Mormonism is truth. True Mormonism is factual truth. My purpose is not to defend traditional or cultural Mormonism, but to seek out and cling to truth. Much spiritual truth cannot be verified, that opens an entirely new can of worms.
Many things harm marriages, different goals/agendas of spouses is something that may continually pull at a marriage. Another topic for another discussion.
Obviously this is a little pet peeve of mine. I always want to say “of course you have a testimony! Tell me about it!!” Don’t tell me what you don’t believe, turn it around and come the other way, what do you believe in? I’ll bet anything I can find parallels in church teachings to anything you believe. Give me a little time and I’ll stretch this tent of belief to include your honest reflections.
When I hear people say exclusive or narrow things I try to let it slip past me the way I would want any embarrassing action to slip past. They may not know they should be embarrassed for what they say/do, but when I do I’ll be sure to let it slip as if it never happened. That goes for conference talks as well as anything else.
I completely agree with Orson. To me, this is a common step along our journey with faith, and we all go through this step where there seems to be a draw, or pull, or need to express to others we don’t see it the same way we used to. I’ve felt that way.
But as time goes on, I start to see how my changing faith leads to my focus on some things and not other things. And so, as I wrestle with things, like Orson said, I don’t feel I disbelieve every thing about the church. So had I told people I don’t believe the church is true…now there is no way to put that toothpaste back in the tube…even if I try to nuance it or clarify…the absolute statement has been said, and can’t be taken back.
I have found that at certain moments, opportunities arise to present how I see things differently. People are interested I am aware of MMM, or peep stones, or polygamy issues…and will talk with me about how I see it, and even if I make bold statements like “I feel the prophet at that time was wrong”…I still bring it back to the church is good and the gospel message of love is what it is about, even if some things are unsavory to me or prophets are fallible.
Discussions usually go to a scale of how much I believe was wrong or imperfect vs how much someone else sees it right or perfect…and can talk about it on that sliding scale. But if it is absolutes…the church is all true or all false…there just isn’t much learning in that binary thinking. So why initiate it? Especially when something like religion is so sacred to some people…it can feel you are attacking them, whether you intend to or not. You can’t just say what you want and say “nothing personal” and they won’t take it personal. Although you are talking about your beliefs…they will feel you are talking about their beliefs and making them feel the need to express why they are not ignorant or stupid to believe these things.
I wait for others to ask me or to raise the topics I don’t agree with and then I have a green light to express what I do believe (not what I don’t)…I don’t “come clean” about things that are in transition and changing and will change next month and next year, because there is nothing I’m hiding to come clean about. I am who I am. I have a testimony in goodness and love and truth.
Paul says not to partake of meat when in the presence of people who abstain from meat. Another common framing is to do no (unnecessary) harm.
Having a listening ear and a shoulder on which to cry is important (very important), but I would urge you simply to accept the reality that you can’t tell clearly how someone is going to respond until it’s too late to change the reaction.
In other words, only you can make that call – and either decision might be good or bad – and that is out of your control. So, I say, go with your heart AND your mind – and don’t let yourself be upset or bitter if the result is not what you want or expect.
Thanks for all the very good thoughts. I had an email typed up, just to get my thoughts out in case I decided to send it to my friend. But after processing it, I think I will go forward without any open declaration of disbelief, for as was worded above, I am still a believing member: I believe in truth, love, prayer and much else. My disbelief is still important to me–it is a part of me that is valuable. But I think sharing it, in this case may be more harmful to the friend. I can keep it to myself. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
startpoor wrote:I am still a believing member: I believe in truth, love, prayer and much else.
Way cool.If nothing else, drafting it may help crystallize ideas you have. The draft is there to be used if ever needed, but the benefit may already be yours, without needing to hit the send button.
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