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  • #209924
    Anonymous
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    I saw this beautiful post over on FMH http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2015/06/youre-on-satans-side/ and thought it beautiful and tragic at the same time. Beautiful because she defends her sons decision and sad that the SP called him out in a public forum. Since the beginning of my FC I have struggles with and ranted on about how the members of the church can be very much like the pharisees. We condemn them in SS but we go out and do the same exact thing. One example I can think of off the top of my head is the WoW. Some members go as far as not drinking caffeinated sodas… because WoW :crazy: . Last time I looked that wasn’t in there, but we’re all about the letter of the law and not the spirit.

    I served a mission and loved it, it was right for me. My brother didn’t serve a mission until he was 25 or 26, he was not ready at 19 but he was ready at 25. I do think there’s too much pressure sometimes to do the “right” thing. Why can’t the right thing sometimes to not serve a mission and not judge. I think this pharisical approach to the commandments goes hand in hand with the way the church teaches grace. I loved Pres. Uchdorft’s last conference talk on grace, that’s how we should teach it, not that we receive it after all we can do 👿 that one is the one that riles me up. What are your thoughts?

    #300560
    Anonymous
    Guest

    My nephew was raised by a ultra-devoted LDS family. Hardliners on every rule and every meeting. No deviation allowed by any of their children. Their oldest son was expected to be a straight A student, have perfect seminary attendance, complete his Eagle Scout, attend BYU, and serve a mission. All went as planned until age 19. He announced that a mission didn’t feel like the right choice. He had prayed about it and it didn’t feel like what he was supposed to do.

    Parental lectures, grandparent interventions, Bishop talks, meetings with the Stake President didn’t change his mind. His family was stunned by his ability to make his own choice and stand by it under intense pressure.

    So many people declared themselves disappointed. I am proud. For someone who was raised as he was, to make such a stand took fortitude and a backbone of steel. Those traits will serve him well in life.

    #300561
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I read the post and agree: it was a beautifully written support for her child and a gentle rebuke to those who would criticize them for their decision. Human beings are all about short cuts and we make quick judgments about people and recognize that others do the same to us. So it doesn’t surprise me that members of the Church are often reflexively judgmental. As Mormons, we are thrown together so closely and so frequently and our judgment machinery is so constantly assessing ourselves and others that we are bound to hurt one another from time to time. If we could be more thoughtful in our interactions with others, it would go a long way to improving the church experience for everyone.

    I liked this quote from the article:

    Quote:

    But as I think about that long-ago Sunday when a church leader told my son he was on the same side as Satan, I ask myself, how welcoming are we of the broken, feeble, imperfect and limited in understanding…? Of those who love, live and worship Christ in a different way than we do? If our church is a ‘hospital ‘ for the sick and afflicted and not a ‘museum’ for the beautifully perfect – then why are we so often, so ruthlessly exacting in our expectations of those who come to this hospital seeking strengthening, love and fellowship?

    Her statement made me think of the words of this song “Lord of the Small” (not of LDS origin but applicable nonetheless):

    Quote:

    Praise to the Lord of the small broken things,

    who sees the poor sparrow that cannot take wing.

    who loves the lame child and the wretch in the street

    who comforts their sorrows and washes their feet.

    Praise to the Lord of the faint and afraid

    who girds them with courage and lends them His aid,

    He pours out his spirit on vessels so weak,

    that the timid can serve and the silent can speak.

    Praise to the Lord of the frail and the ill

    who heals their afflictions or carries them till,

    they leave this tired frame and to paradise fly.

    to never be sick and never to die.

    Praise him, O praise Him all ye who live

    who’ve been given so much and can so little give

    our frail lisping praise God will never despise-

    He sees His dear children through mercy-filled eyes.

    #300562
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I remember being told by my SS teacher as an irreverent tween that I was a false prophet unto myself. Still to this day I am not sure what a false prophet unto oneself is supposed to do. Isn’t the point of being a prophet to proclaim things to other people. Am I supposed to doubt my own inner voice because it is false? Who would tell a young person that?

    I did not go on a mission until I was almost 21. There were visits from my HT specifically to challenge me to go. I met with the bishop on the same subject. I had heard through the grapevine that one female aquantance was wondering aloud if there was something wrong with me and if I was date-able due to my non-missionary status. I received my patriarchial blessing. I told the Patriach that I was not planning to go. He blessed me *surprise* that the Lord had a mission for me, that I had a choice to make, and that if I chose the Lords path I would never regret it.

    I did end up going on a mission and getting my mormon credentials. I think it would be much harder staying in the church without these “earmarks.”

    I have heard it said that two types of people can thrive in the church – The saints and the liars. :lolno:

    That sums up my fellings in a pretty succinct way.

    #300563
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks for sharing this TA. There is a young man in our ward who recently came out and told his parents he doesn’t plan to serve. They’re good people, they try hard, they have leadership callings and he is the oldest son. They were devastated and sadly this young man is going trough much of what the article and others here have described.

    Serving a mission is not a commandment. Nothing else needs to be said.

    #300564
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I have two brothers who didn’t serve missions: one who didn’t go and another who came home after a few months, honorably, on his own initiative. I have a son who didn’t serve a mission.

    All three are active in the Church now (two always were), primarily because they were taught that they had to make their own decisions and defend them if questioned.

    Yes, we can be pharisaical, and missions are an example of how Mormons do so.

    As I often do, however, I need to point out that even the most irreligious and progressive people can be just as pharisaical. It’s human nature, but we in the Church tend not to understand overcoming the natural (wo)man as a comprehensive principle. We tend to focus only on the obvious aspect of things that we call sin.

    #300565
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I posted the link to the blog on my FB page and one of my more orthodox friends commented

    “Ok so I don’t usually comment on things like this but I found that reading this made me very uncomfortable to point that I cannot stay silent. There are undoubtedly hypocrites within and without the church. It is without a doubt between you and your Heavenly Father when it comes to decisions such as a mission. This is all true. However, all youth and specifically young men have been advised by the prophet of the church to prepare for and serve a mission. Yeah it wasn’t cool for the man from the stake to single out the young man in the story, but that doesn’t actually make him a hypocrite. Being disappointed rather than excited when a young man chooses to leave the church rather than ho on a mission doesn’t make you a hypocrite either. I do not know the people in the story. I do not know the circumstances but I have 2 brothers who chose not to go on missions and for them it had nothing to do with what God told them as an answered prayer and everything to do with not having the testimony and faith to go and serve the Lord in that way. They have also since chosen to leave the church and go their own way. Does being sad or disappointed about that, does trying to help them see that I believe they have made the wrong choice make me a hypocrite? I don’t think it does. I opted to go on a mission. I did it a bit late, going out at 23 instead of 21. I wasn’t ready at 21 to go. As a girl rather than a boy I didn’t get the same kind of pressure. However as a 30 year old girl I get pressure every day from family friends and ward embers to get married. Does it make them hypocrites because they don’t know what my answers have been to my personal prayers? Does it make me a hypocrite because I know I should get married and yet I’m still single? I don’t think so. I’m sorry if you feel like my comment is judgemental. Hey maybe it is judgemental I’m not even remotely perfect. But I had to say what I think. Which is that no, urging our youth to prepare for and go on missions is not hypocritical. It’s good parenting an it’s good leadership to encourage people to follow the prophet and the words of Christ. I agknowlede that some are told through revelation not to go on a mission but those are isolated incidents.”

    Sigh… but I still like her. This was my response

    “I’m sorry if it came as though I was calling the Stake Pres a hypocrite. I’m calling all of us (including me) a hypocrite or maybe a pharisee is a better word. That’s the part that I liked the best. The 9th paragraph down talking on Christ’s condemnation of hypocrisy and the outward appearance versus the inner. How many times do we judge because of someone’s outer choice. You said yourself that you’ve been pressured by friends, family and ward members on marriage. Heck I’m sure I’ve pressured you. This made me think twice about how I might pressure others based on the outward appearance. Really I should be focusing inward. It’s something to think about that maybe we’re doing things for the wrong reason. I still enjoy the article and I still like you even though you disagree with it. I knew it might be divisive when I posted it, but I thought it worthwhile. It started a conversation, and that’s what it’s about.”

    I did get a lot of good responses to the post so that makes me happy.

    #300566
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Your friend has a point. The use of the word “hypocrite” is challenging. 1st is that it is loaded with baggage and will likely make people defensive and angry rather than come to the conversation table. 2nd it applies to everyone. We all pretend to some qualities that we do not have in full measure – especially while dating or interviewing for a job. 3rd it does not apply fully. There are many people that are complete jerks but are also doing exactly what they believe. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, though I am sure that many of them thought that they were super devout. Perhaps this is because they offered a counterfeit salvation. They made a big show of being religious and pleasing God in their actions when in fact they were rejecting God through His only begotten son. Devout Mormons could counter that they are not hypocrites because they do as they believe. They are not Pharisees because the Pharisees rejected God in favor of their religious observances – while Mormons could claim that we are following and defending God through ours (no doubt as the Pharisees thought that they were doing). (Similarly, are our temples the sacred “House of the Lord” or whited sepulchers – pretty on the outside but full of dead ordinances and empty promises on the inside? A case could be made either way depending on your belief.)

    Perhaps the claim of hypocrisy best fits in the social consequences of non-conformity. Because the social consequences of following our divergent conscience are sometimes severe, there is pressure to prevent those consequences by upholding a facade. Just yesterday I bore my testimony. When I sat down my wife asked me how I could say that the church was true. I responded that it is true to a certain point of view (As in useful or purposeful). Apparently not completely satisfied she asked me again after church. I told her that our son will turn 8 in less than 6 months and I am leveraging myself to perform the baptism. This year with the ward schedule and my work – I get to SM less than 50% of the time and often leave after the sacrament is passed. Bearing my testimony was an opportunity for me to make sure that the bishop noticed that I was present and still had a measure of faith. I said mostly what I believe in along with some customary phrases that I can say without strictly lying (such as “I know the church is true.”)

    Am I a hypocrite? Some on both sides would say that to be true to myself and to others would be to remove my name from church records. Am I a hypocrite in that I follow the WoW solely for social/marital reasons (at least as far as coffee/tee is concerned)? Is it hypocrisy to moderate/modify our behavior based on how it will impact those around us? Is it hypocrisy to conform to certain group norms for fear of being rejected and cast out by the group? Whose fault is my hypocrisy? Is it the church culture of literalness and conformity that forces me to hide my symbolic interpretations? Is it my fault for not having the fortitude to publicize my differences? Am I a “snake in the grass” or “wolf in sheep’s clothing” by being so circumspect about my differences? I believe the answers to these questions are both “Yes” and “No” and whether you lean more towards a yes or a no can depend greatly on your perspective.

    Fortunately, I believe that most thoughtful people recognize some gray area here. They would not demand that everyone with doubts leave the church immediately until the doubts are completely resolved. I do not know hardly anyone that would be that extreme – especially in dealing with someone that they know and love.

    In summary, perhaps this discussion is better served using words like judgmentalism, pressure to conform, shaming, ostracism, expectations, monoculture, etc. Using words like hypocrite or Pharisee will probably turn off people that do not already agree with the author.

    #300567
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Roy’s point is an excellent one.

    Just yesterday, I was in Sunday School when someone talked about the danger of “loyal discontent” – and it was in the context of a discussion of the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. I simply mentioned that we have to be very careful in how we use words and apply them to others. I mentioned that all of us could be called hypocrites by someone, since none of us live up to the ideals we believe – and that, in practical terms, we often use a word like “discontent” to mean opposition when, in reality, it most often means not agreeing with something enough to be content or satisfied. I said I believe discontent is a good thing, IF it helps us grow and change and progress and repent – that it is a bad thing only if we let it become a canker that makes us miserable and bitter and confrontational.

    I mentioned the difference between discontent and opposition – and I also mentioned that our theology and the Gospel teach explicitly AGAINST being content to the point of becoming lazy and not continuing to change and grow. I ended by saying we can’t shut down differing opinions, because, for most of us, being exposed to different viewpoints is the only way we ever will think of something differently than is natural for us – and being exposed to that which is not natural to us is the only way we generally can put aside “the natural man” and change.

    Every person in the room, with perhaps only one or two exceptions, nodded and seemed to understand – and one person referenced my comment later in the lesson – and one person initiated a discussion afterward specifically about it in which I used Elder Wirthlin’s analogy of God’s great orchestra and not valuing only the piccolos. The person with whom I was speaking will be a leader in the Church in the near future, I am sure – and I told him I was going into more detail with him personally because he would be a leader at some point and would be responsible to correct what naturally happens in congregations when only one voice is privileged and emphasized.

    #300568
    Anonymous
    Guest

    TA, thanks for sharing the article. It’s an interesting story, and it certainly is something that we all need to continue to strive with. I do wish the Church would ease what President Monson has called the “mandate to serve.” We are told that it is part of priesthood duty to serve a mission. I think that’s very unfortunate. It creates all kinds of pressure on people who are struggling emotionally or spiritually. IMO, serving a mission is a wonderful thing when done voluntarily for the ‘right’ reasons (selflessness, sacrifice, charity) and a terrible thing when done under compulsion for the ‘wrong’ reasons (pressure, obedience).

    I like the point of the article, but I do think that the author makes a critical error, which makes it difficult to use it as a tool for helping others. Any attempt to win converts is going to be hurt by framing the discussion as an argument. Placing the other party on notice or on the defensive is a terrible advocacy tactic unless the target audience is indirectly the people who already believe the same way.

    Jesus famously condemned the Pharisees. Jesus’ followers may have eaten it up, but Jesus didn’t have any converts from among the Pharisees (apologies to Nicodemus, who, we are told, was sympathetic, but remained a Pharisee). And I will point out that between Jesus and the Pharisees, the Pharisees won the debate.

    If we hope to make any difference in the Church, it will be by finding common ground, not by accusations and arguments. For example, in conversations I’ve had about same sex marriage, I get a lot of leverage by saying that I used to be on the other side of it, but that I’ve come to believe that sexual orientation is not a choice, something that the Church says now, and that I am just trying to figure out a way to allow people who didn’t choose homosexuality to have a way to participate in the Church and Atonement. It’s amazing how easy and natural it is to get to that common ground. If, instead, I started with telling people they are hypocrites and bigoted… well… the conversation would be over before it ever started.

    I look at the interchange between you and your friend as an example. The two of you have many points of commonality. But the focus of your interaction is on your disagreements. I think you were both respectful to each other. It’s a friendship that I would foster.

    #300569
    Anonymous
    Guest

    TataniaAvalon wrote:

    This was my response

    “I’m sorry if it came as though I was calling the Stake Pres a hypocrite. I’m calling all of us (including me) a hypocrite or maybe a pharisee is a better word. That’s the part that I liked the best. The 9th paragraph down talking on Christ’s condemnation of hypocrisy and the outward appearance versus the inner. How many times do we judge because of someone’s outer choice. You said yourself that you’ve been pressured by friends, family and ward members on marriage. Heck I’m sure I’ve pressured you. This made me think twice about how I might pressure others based on the outward appearance. Really I should be focusing inward. It’s something to think about that maybe we’re doing things for the wrong reason. I still enjoy the article and I still like you even though you disagree with it. I knew it might be divisive when I posted it, but I thought it worthwhile. It started a conversation, and that’s what it’s about.”

    I did get a lot of good responses to the post so that makes me happy.


    You did a good job and you’re much braver than I am to discuss anything on Facebook. :thumbup:

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