Prayer — James 1:5-7

I love a good scriptural conundrum. I also like to make them messier.

#1 – How does this square with the gospels story of the man who said, “Lord, help thou my unbelief.” Sounds like faith wavering to me, and he was addressing Christ.

#2 – Saul/Paul. Saul didn’t ask, didn’t believe, had no interest in believing – so no faith – and what happens to him, on the road to kill some Christians? His entire life is turned upside down. No faith involved in this one.

I have no direct answers to the quandary, only I try to look for outliers when I can. I mean, Alma the Younger, according to the story – wasn’t filled with much faith, or at least a righteous/Godly type faith and look what happened to him.

It’s a good one. My favorite part has always been that we leave off the second half of six.

Let’s NOT assume it is the perfect word of God, translated correctly.

See how easy that was?

I think there is great power and glory in those verses, for many people – and great danger and disappointment in them for many others. I can say that about almost everything in our scriptures. I still love our scriptures, but I love them on my own terms.

I’m chuckling. Your no run Ray! Quick killing the fun……..

THAT IS the conclusion I also came to. I think James must have been writing to a specific point, because his words are inconsistent with other historical things like Alma,…etc.

A lot of it is compartmentalizing. Mormons sure have grabbed on to this scripture because of JS’s experience, and so it gets used a lot. I’m not sure if it is even used as it was intended or how it was originally written…but that is another thread too…not just if it was translated correctly, but if it is interpreted correctly or if it is culturally understood correctly. (Lotsa variables exist to work through on finding truth).

Don’t waver in faith God will answer while asking for help. But that doesn’t mean have zero doubt in your brain about all things or even all things God related.

“God, I don’t think you’ll give me an answer, but please prove me wrong and give me an answer.” I don’t think that will work well.

I think that is the lesson in the James scripture.

The scriptures are trying to help us learn lessons because we do have to figure things out on our own, so they are little nuggets of thoughts here are there to help. They aren’t all truth unwavering.

By working through the scriptures that bother you, you are motivated to find ways to have them help you and give deep meaning. They will take on more meaning than back in the day when things were literally translated by the Hand of God to a prophet, or corrected by JS so Mormons have “better scripture”.

As CS Lewis says:

If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellent; … the truth we need most is hidden precisely in the doctrines you least like and least understand. – CS Lewis

Prayer, like exercising your body to become fit, takes time and effort and commitment to find how it can be helpful. It does not work the same from person to person, or even the same person from time to time. It doesn’t become powerful all at once on the first workout.

Only you can decide whether that is useful to you or not.

The James scripture is one element of faith…believing it will be worth the effort. If you don’t find utility in that scripture, park it for now, as you choose from your buffet of multiple other scriptures on prayer and other wise thoughts that maybe do help you.

Spiritual growth is not color by numbers. Connecting with the divine is a blank canvas and you get to figure out what works. Based on your comments, something is telling me you reject the simplistic formulas sometimes taught in primary and YM/YW. Your life experience tells you it ain’t that easy. Even if missionaries like to quote James so people will think it is.

I feel the same way about Moroni 10.

But I don’t reject prayer because those scriptures are too simplistic and don’t match my views. I simply accept I see it different.

I really do suggest looking through our archives and commenting on older posts that match what you would write. There is nothing wrong with discussing something multiple times (which we do here all the time), but there is some excellent commentary on a lot of subjects – and I am a firm believer in learning from those who came before us and no longer participate actively.

I feel the same way about Moroni 10.

Heber, can you take a moment and expand on your concerns with this one?

Rob, The ideas I have around Moroni 10 are captured pretty well in this old discussion here:

Moroni 10:5 and no longer believing

I think there are parts of seeking God and praying that will provide answers that are not confined to Mormonism. Brian suggested the bias in our own religion, and Moroni’s formula for inspiration is to study it and ask if it is right. But it is sometimes what we do with an answer and extrapolate it that gets interesting, and the assumptions we make with our personal experiences. He suggested…

Can someone pray about the Qur’an to know it’s true? Yup. I have met people that did that and got an answer. I have no problem accepting that. What does that mean? To me, it means there is a message from God in that book for them. Their intuition, their spiritual self, is telling them to travel that journey. Does it mean that the angel Gabriel literally dictated all the words in the Qur’an to the Prophet Mohammed? I don’t know. That’s an interesting idea to explore, but again … it misses the point.

There are some good thoughts in that thread. After reading it, Rob, do you get an idea of what I’m suggesting with prayer? It is not useless. But it may not be simplistic formulas exclusive to one scripture or one religion. All goodness can have answers that it is good.

What do you think about Moroni 10? James 1:5-7 equally can help provide wisdom to Emanual Swedenborg and Joseph Smith and many others, but the actions of faith taken after the revelation is given can be very different paths forward. I like the Brother of Jared model, where God wants us to ask, wants us to suggest a solution, but in many ways accepts our ideas because there are many ways to get light into a boat…so…sure, stones would work and with faith can be a solution. It doesn’t mean God wants all boats lit by stones. But He is OK with the solutions we present so He can work and bring light into our lives in ways that are meaningful to us.

What do you think about Moroni 10? James 1:5-7 equally can help provide wisdom to Emanual Swedenborg and Joseph Smith and many others, but the actions of faith taken after the revelation is given can be very different paths forward. I like the Brother of Jared model, where God wants us to ask, wants us to suggest a solution, but in many ways accepts our ideas because there are many ways to get light into a boat…so…sure, stones would work and with faith can be a solution. It doesn’t mean God wants all boats lit by stones. But He is OK with the solutions we present so He can work and bring light into our lives in ways that are meaningful to us.

This is a great summary of how I believe God interacts with us. In my opinion, it explains why early Church history is riddled with odd events and current Church policy is sometimes aggravating. If God guides our every footstep, well, He hasn’t been a very good guide sometimes. BUT, if He allows us (and His Church) to make mistakes, correct course, and figure things out then, of course, there are going to be some problems. God, as a somewhat more removed God, makes sense to me.

Actually, I’m a fan of both James 1:5-7 and Moroni 10:3-5, as well as Matthew 6:6 and Matthew 7:7-11 and others.

One thing I have always appreciated about the Church’s missionary effort is the focus on each person praying to know if the Church and its teachings are true. A person who prays and receives a spiritual answer will have experienced a priceless connection with God. There was a time when it worked for me, but not any more. I’d gladly go back if I could.

This is just my opinion, but I think it’s useful not to get too nitpicky about the meaning of certain passages. The big picture always has to be in view. The author of James was likely just reminding the reader that they had to bring something to the conversation in the same way that he talked of faith and action. The writer was addressing those who already had faith, but admonished them to “be doers of the word, and not merely hearers” (James 1:22 NRSV) and to “show no partiality” to others (James 2:1 ESV), and that “judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy” (James 2:13 NRSV) and that “faith, by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead” (James 2:17 NIV). Had he or she been writing to the unbelievers, he/she would certainly have bypassed all the extra qualifying nuance and said simply to hear the word and have faith… and to pray for wisdom.