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I wonder…do the GA widows receive a living allowance? I read the news piece by Peggy Fletcher Stack in the SLTrib and reflected on his being my mission president for a year after a year with Truman Madsen. We couldn’t go to church without an investigator and I remember tracting in a blizzard one Sunday. At a zone conference in Laconia, NH, he took a handful of frosted cake and squeezed it out on one of the ZLs saying that that was the way we were teaching and people in New England were joining the church in spite of us. (The same story is in “Teaching, No Greater Call” that said he followed up the demonstration with a sliced piece on a crystal plate saying that’s the way to present the gospel but I have no recollection of that part.) I left the mission with a guilty conscience about things I’d done and finally wrote him a letter apologizing for my failings. What I got back was a dictated note signed by his secretary. And finally he left me in my last area for nine months and I don’t think it was because I had more to do or learn. If you were doing what he wanted and producing what he wanted you were ok but if not you were nothing. He lived a long life and served a long time and I’m glad he’s gone. Quote:We couldn’t go to church without an investigator
This was true in my mission as well. I pointed out repeatedly that it was the stupidest rule ever. Missionaries would be told they weren’t worthy to go to church because they didn’t have an investigator, and in one of my areas we had nobody for six weeks, so we were basically inactive. Then in one Sunday we had two families who were baptized. Then the next Sunday we had nobody again. The rule was finally changed later in my mission, and I assume it was either because one of the elders was the son of a 70, or because the members complained about the undue burden on them to fellowship members when the missionaries were setting a bad example by being inactive!
I truly wish his stance on all things sexual didn’t cloud his overall record so much for so many. He actually was very caring and even progressive in many other ways. Some will say God took him to save him the pain of the result of the SCOTUS ruling; others will say God took him and Elder Perry so the Church could move forward more positively in that decision’s wake.
Right now, I don’t care. I didn’t agree with him about some things, even deeply, but I did agree with him on some other things. Above all else, he really did have a loving heart, no matter how hard it was to see it as he focused more and more on issues of sex.
God bless his family at this time. There are many who are mourning and in need of comfort at this time. May we mourn with and comfort them.
The following quotes are from Pres. Packer during the Nov. 2010 world-wide training session, which, due to the setting, many of you probably haven’t heard. They are from my notes, so they might not be exact: Quote:“This CHI is meant to provide “simplification and flexibility”. “Let me underline that.”
“Pres. Clark once said that too much regimentation can remove revelation. We are in danger of that happening in the Church.”
“ALL meetings should be conducted by the Spirit. It is time for our young men and young women to prophecy and for our old men and women to dream dreams.”
“There is a danger of establishing the Church and not the Gospel. Planting the Gospel in our hearts MUST accompany having the Church in our lives. Busy-ness can’t replace testimony.”
“Families are not tools to staff the Church; the Church is a tool to serve families. Don’t over-burden families!”
Old-Timer wrote:The following quotes are from Pres. Packer during the Nov. 2010 world-wide training session, which, due to the setting, many of you probably haven’t heard. They are from my notes, so they might not be exact:
Quote:“This CHI is meant to provide “simplification and flexibility”. “Let me underline that.”
“Pres. Clark once said that too much regimentation can remove revelation. We are in danger of that happening in the Church.”
“ALL meetings should be conducted by the Spirit. It is time for our young men and young women to prophecy and for our old men and women to dream dreams.”
“There is a danger of establishing the Church and not the Gospel. Planting the Gospel in our hearts MUST accompany having the Church in our lives. Busy-ness can’t replace testimony.”
“Families are not tools to staff the Church; the Church is a tool to serve families. Don’t over-burden families!”
I like all these quotes. I think earlier in his life he took a harder line, and then softened. His unWritten Order of Things contained many ideals that caused me pain, such as never say “No” to a calling and other “members as employees” statements. I’m glad he softened later in life. The sad thing is that the things that really resonate with us StayLDSers seem to go into the average member’s ear and out the other — these statements included.
In my TBM days, BKP was one of my favorites because I appreciated that he was forthright. I still respect him for that, but I also see the damage he did to some – not the least of which are gay members. I can’t say I’ll miss him. While I didn’t fear he’d make it to the big chair because of his poor health I am still glad he didn’t. I do see he had a testimony of the Savior and he bore that witness relatively often, but as others have said that was too often clouded by other things he said. I guess that puts me in the camp of making room for someone more progressive – I’m hoping for two progressives and also hoping that’s not too much to ask. (FWIW, if I couldn’t have attended church without an investigator I would have spent almost all of my mission not going to church. That whole idea flies in the face of what we’re taught about the importance of attending church and partaking of the sacrament.)
Quote:“You can’t stage manage a grizzly bear.”
THAT is my favorite quote about BKP. It captured so much about him. Whether you loved him or hated him, you knew where he stood on a subject and you knew when he was in the room.
May his family find comfort.
Quote:I read the news piece by Peggy Fletcher Stack in the SLTrib and reflected on his being my mission president for a year after a year with Truman Madsen. We couldn’t go to church without an investigator and I remember tracting in a blizzard one Sunday. At a zone conference in Laconia, NH, he took a handful of frosted cake and squeezed it out on one of the ZLs saying that that was the way we were teaching and people in New England were joining the church in spite of us. (The same story is in “Teaching, No Greater Call” that said he followed up the demonstration with a sliced piece on a crystal plate saying that’s the way to present the gospel but I have no recollection of that part.) I left the mission with a guilty conscience about things I’d done and finally wrote him a letter apologizing for my failings. What I got back was a dictated note signed by his secretary. And finally he left me in my last area for nine months and I don’t think it was because I had more to do or learn. If you were doing what he wanted and producing what he wanted you were ok but if not you were nothing. He lived a long life and served a long time and I’m glad he’s gone.
Wow. What a tough situation! It makes me grateful for my second mission president who had warmth and kindness along with high expectations for his missionaries.
I didn’t know Elder Packer personally, so like most members, I derive what he is from his talks and positions on different issues. GBSmith’s experience would seem to reinforce my opinion of him. I agree with Ray that Elder Packer loved the Savior and the Church and truly wanted to serve. However, I wonder how much compassion he had for the people around him. I have run into many people (mostly men) who are service-oriented, who have strong testimonies, but lack the ability to truly empathize with others. I sometimes feel we are a Church of Achievement and Goal Setting and Careful Adherence to Rules rather than a Church of Love and Hope. Elder Packer seemed, to me, to belong to the first. (Other G.A.’s seemed to belong to the second).
Well, whatever the case may be, I’m sure Elder Packer did what he felt was right. May he rest in peace and may his family be comforted.
Now I can sustain the General Authorities with more confidence. RIP Pres Packer, wherever you are.
Quote:I have run into many people (mostly men) who are service-oriented, who have strong testimonies, but lack the ability to truly empathize with others. I sometimes feel we are a Church of Achievement and Goal Setting and Careful Adherence to Rules rather than a Church of Love and Hope. Elder Packer seemed, to me, to belong to the first. (Other G.A.’s seemed to belong to the second).
I have had similar experiences. On reflection, many of the higher-ranking people I worked with appeared to view their positions as management positions, not leadership and spiritual leadership positions. At least, the ones I remember.
The exceptions are my current Bishop, my Mission President, and a very inspiring man who took me under my wing and encouraged me to leave my insurance sales career and become a university educator. I have to make sure I don’t forget the babies as I deal with the bathwater.
Hi All, Ray, I admire you for sharing these quotes of Boyd Packer. It takes the edge off the kind of public persona he had as a crusty old man who didn’t seem open to discussion about liberal ideas in Mormonism.
“This CHI is meant to provide “simplification and flexibility”. “Let me underline that.”
it was great of him to say that. i don’t think that message was ever emphasized by the Brethren from what I remember when I was active.
“Pres. Clark once said that too much regimentation can remove revelation. We are in danger of that happening in the Church.”
i think he’s right. regimentation is probably one of the reasons why i didn’t want to come back to church (among other ones).
“ALL meetings should be conducted by the Spirit. It is time for our young men and young women to prophecy and for our old men and women to dream dreams.”
his 2nd quote ties into this 3rd quote. too regimented and you can lose the Spirit.
“There is a danger of establishing the Church and not the Gospel. Planting the Gospel in our hearts MUST accompany having the Church in our lives. Busy-ness can’t replace testimony.”
“Busy-ness can’t replace testimony” sure resonates with me.
“Families are not tools to staff the Church; the Church is a tool to serve families. Don’t over-burden families!”
Amen !
The above quotes show a side of Packer that we didn’t get to see very often.
as to his inflexible side that some in the church may have perceived about him, i had a discussion with someone about how we can tend to lose our empathy(or sympathy) when we are sacrificing our natural impulses for and within a faith community. you or i may have said to ourselves “well goodness, I was able to (fill in the blank) so why can’t he(or she) ?”. A good example might be us feeling proud and self-righteous about our church meeting attendance or obedience to the law of chastity.
i saw news of his passing on a toronto tv news station and i have to admit i did not feel upset of the news because he was so crusty (for lack of a better word) and I think i felt that way because he was so rigid on his views about human sexuality. i really feel the church will be more socially progressive now that he’s passed on.
Mike
I am not sure whether the church will change much after he leaves — he was one man among the 15 who make all the decisions. I know some of them are over various areas — missionary work, etcetera, where they would likely have more direct influence than they would over general policy… I get it about attitudes you can develop when you are making large sacrifices. I was exactly the way you described many years ago. I tended to look at the sacrifices I was making, and felt everyone should/could do the same. I have since learned, from other people, that am unusual in the way I push myself for long periods of time. And so, I no longer expect this of other people. I shudder to think I might’ve that in common with BKP.
Good point about being only one of the 15, SD. I’m sure he was as active in the meetings as he could be with his declining health but I do wonder how much of voice any individual has. Like any other group, I’m sure there are those who are more vociferous and those that are more marginalized. I do recognize that these guys are all very smart and strong leaders, but I think group dynamics are what they are. With Elder Scott out of the picture due to his health, they are really down to twelve right now and all twelve of those are not in top shape mentally or physically. The two new ones could have an impact, especially if they are like minded and open/assertive enough. The choices will be intriguing. Another little side note – with the passing of BKP, Pres. Monson is the only remaining apostle to have been a part of the revelation ending the priesthood ban. Our SS teacher shared this quote with us from LTP yesterday:
Quote:“I am one of three people alive that were in the upper room of the temple the day the revelation was received that ended the restriction. It was experienced differently by each of us in the room. President Kimball led us in prayer. While he was praying we had a marvelous experience. The nearest I can describe it is that it was much like what has been recounted as happening at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple or the day of Pentecost. I felt something like the rushing of wind. There was a feeling that came over the whole group. When President Kimball stood he was visibly relieved and overjoyed. There was a great feeling of unity among us and relief that it was over. As I have talked with other members of the Twelve since then, they felt the same as I did. I don’t think the Twelve will ever be the same again. It was a once-in-a-lifetime experience.”
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