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The title sums it up. The background to this question is a discussion I had with my young adult son who agrees with me that feeling the Spirit or influence of the Holy Ghost is not necessarily dependent on obedience but is available to all (including non-members) who avail themselves to it. We recognize that this goes against a very common church teaching which is often repeated in General Conference. Part of our discussion had to do with guilt (associated with those teachings) actually being the preventer of one not feeling the Spirit as opposed to the sin itself. Also by way of background I will add that the Holy Ghost and I have a complicated relationship – but that I do have influences that I believe are the Spirit and in all other ways fit the prescription (persuades to do good, etc.). Sometimes these influences come in a church setting (I felt what I believe to be the Spirit today in SS but not in F&TM or PH) and sometimes randomly – but they don’t seem to be related to my own obedience or willingness to obey.
I’m interested in the perspective and experiences of others, including those more orthodox. (You understand that I can’t actually ask a live orthodox person, of course, because they tend to be parrots and not be able to think outside the groupthink.)
I always personally disagreed with the idea that only worthy people can feel the spirit. Honestly I am not totally sure I believe in a literal Holy Ghost or at least not in the Mormon sense.
If there is such a thing my relationship with the Holy Ghost sure is complicated too.
I feel so strongly inspired to pursue a certain career field and it doesn’t work out. If the Holy Ghost is real it sure does like to point me into dead ends.
I feel like I need to walk my Journey without looking for a magical feeling to appear.
I wish you the best of luck on your personal Journey with or without this Holy Ghost.
May the Force Be With You.
I think this is an excellent question and is something I figured out a number of years ago while still a TBM (albeit a more liberal and open-minded one, probably). I can’t remember the exact epiphany moment, but I do remember realizing that the process of seeking and earning/learning spiritual guidance did not appear related to obedience and sacrifice to the degree I’d been taught. Some of my most illuminating spiritual moments came after periods of “sin” rather than periods of long fasting and prayer. I remember thinking that my previous behavior in search of spirituality almost seemed a little crazy. I’ve since learned/discovered that tapping into “the Spirit” is more akin to finding a universal energy flow that exists all around us irrespective of religion, race, SES, gender, or sexual orientation. Accessing this flow or source is less about obedience to any particular set of rules, but rather about calming, balancing, opening, and loving.
I kind of sound like a Buddhist, but … I’m a Mormon.
No, and our scriptures are proof of that. I have heard many conversations in church where we admit openly that obedience is not tied to feeling the spirit. We have another thread in our archives about this exact same question, but I can’t look it up right now. I suggest trying to find it and reading those responses, as well.
I’m not sure if this is the one you’re referring to, Ray: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5775&p=79186&hilit=worthy+spirit#p79186 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5775&p=79186&hilit=worthy+spirit#p79186 I don’t know that I’ve had any kind of conversation in church specifically about the subject, but I have been involved with conversations about the church not having a monopoly on the Spirit and that people outside the church have spiritual experiences as well (although these conversations have sometimes been tempered by the superiority many believe we have with the GotHG – something I am not convinced of).
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of god. If feeling the spirit is contingent on obedience how does anyone feel the spirit? Saul on the road to Damascus and Alma the younger come immediately to mind. Those scriptures don’t focus on feeling the spirit but they do approach the same subject. We tend to think of being visited by angels (or Jesus, feeling the spirit, etc.) as something that is reserved for the ultra righteous. Your testimony must be this tall to have a spiritual experience. Saul and Alma are two examples that go against that grain.
I’ve heard some valid criticism of the teaching that we must be obedient to enjoy the companionship of the spirit. Essentially, so the spirit decides to leave us in the precise moment when we need it the most. It’s the definition of a bad friend, there for the good times, nowhere to be found for the bad times.
I’ve heard the spirit of the lord will not always strive with man brought up as a counterargument but I’m not so sure I agree with the traditional interpretation. The spirit may always strive with man but man may reach the point where he is no longer willing to strive to feel the spirit.
This is a difficult question for me. I don’t even have definitions for the spirit or obedience nailed down.
nibbler wrote:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of god. If feeling the spirit is contingent on obedience how does anyone feel the spirit?
Saul on the road to Damascus and Alma the younger come immediately to mind. Those scriptures don’t focus on feeling the spirit but they do approach the same subject. We tend to think of being visited by angels (or Jesus, feeling the spirit, etc.) as something that is reserved for the ultra righteous. Your testimony must be this tall to have a spiritual experience. Saul and Alma are two examples that go against that grain.
I’ve heard some valid criticism of the teaching that we must be obedient to enjoy the companionship of the spirit. Essentially, so the spirit decides to leave us in the precise moment when we need it the most. It’s the definition of a bad friend, there for the good times, nowhere to be found for the bad times.
I’ve heard the spirit of the lord will not always strive with man brought up as a counterargument but I’m not so sure I agree with the traditional interpretation.
The spirit may always strive with man but man may reach the point where he is no longer willing to strive to feel the spirit.This is a difficult question for me. I don’t even have definitions for the spirit or obedience nailed down.
I’m with you about not necessarily knowing what obedience is is or what the Spirit is Nibbler. It’s definitely a “see through glass darkly” thing for me. And I like the examples of Saul and Alma.
The highlighted portion was part of the conversation with my son. He believes, and I concur, that the influence of the Spirit is always present everywhere and it is us who “choose” not to feel it for whatever reason be that guilt, doubt, etc. (I am less certain about the influence being everywhere all the time than he is.) In my agnostic days, being more uncertain there was a God than I now am, I did purposely ignore the feelings that I had and do associate with the influence of the Spirit. I’m still pretty good at that because I still doubt and still can’t usually tell what is Spirit and what is emotion.
A little case study: two of our missionaries are being transferred this week. I barely know them, and I’m not particularly fond of either of them (I generally don’t form attachments to missionaries). They both “bore their testimonies” in F&TM yesterday and I looked around and recognized that several people in the congregation, obviously closer to them than I, were wiping away tears. I chalk it up to emotion that they are going to miss their friends – but if I were to ask them, I am willing to bet they would tell me how wonderful their testimonies were and how strongly they felt the Spirit in that meeting. As stated above, I didn’t feel anything special in that meeting but I did in SS (no testimonies borne there). Were I to get into a deeper discussion with the more orthodox types who were present I would likely be judged as having been unworthy of the Spirit during F&TM, hence I didn’t feel it like others did. I did take the sacrament, I read from John 18 and 19 during the passing (on my tablet – that’s probably why I didn’t feel the Spirit
I’m so glad you brought this up; I’ve been thinking along the same lines lately. I have been struggling to define what “feeling the Spirit” actually is. I understand the warm, peaceful feeling of confirmation that I equate with the ideas of resonating or ringing true, but it’s the other functions of the Spirit, particularly the guiding or warning, that I am not sure about. There are two very specific instances from my life where I really was being extremely obedient, but didn’t receive the guidance from the spirit that I expected. In the first case, some abuse happened in my home to one of my children. I was very active and obedient at the time and, in fact, was attending the temple during one of the instances of abuse. I have often wondered where the warning was, or why neither my priesthood-holding DH nor myself ever had any idea that something like this was happening in our home until well after the fact. Where was that spirit of warning to protect our innocent child and us? When I look back on that time, I can honestly say that there was nothing in my life that would have prevented the spirit from helping us, even that we were actively seeking spiritual guidance in our lives. And while I don’t think there is anyone in this crowd who believes that abuse could be warranted as some kind of lesson, please just don’t go there.
The second instance happened a few years ago when DH and I were trying to decide whether or not to have another baby. I fasted and prayed on my own, and I felt an overwhelming surety that I was supposed to have another child. When DH and I went to the temple with the question, I felt what I would describe as a very strong sense of the spirit the whole time– even the name of the person I was doing work for was a name we had discussed as one we liked for a daughter. I was absolutely sure that the answer was yes. After the session, however, my DH expressed a completely different experience. He was sure that our family was complete as it was, and his very clear answer was no. Ultimately, we decided not to have any more children, and although I can now see the wisdom in that decision, I am still confused at my experience in the temple. Did I just want to have another baby and sought confirmation where I could find it? Did I have a spiritual experience, but since DH is the priesthood holder, did his experience trump mine? Was the spirit just messing with me, or was that the spirit at all? Again, I was in the very obedient, TBM camp at the time.
DarkJedi wrote:I still doubt and still can’t usually tell what is Spirit and what is emotion.
Exactly. I am especially frustrated with that very thin line between spiritual and emotional feelings. The last time I attended the temple, I left feeling so frustrated that there was so much emotion in one of the new videos, especially from Peter. It felt manipulative to me, like they were trying to get me to cry because then I’d think I felt the spirit.
I’ve heard someone talk about separating the two, and she said something to the effect of now that she can truly recognize the spirit, it is rarely an emotional experience.
NonTraditionalMom wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I still doubt and still can’t usually tell what is Spirit and what is emotion.
Exactly. I am especially frustrated with that very thin line between spiritual and emotional feelings. The last time I attended the temple, I left feeling so frustrated that there was so much emotion in one of the new videos, especially from Peter. It felt manipulative to me, like they were trying to get me to cry because then I’d think I felt the spirit.
I’ve heard someone talk about separating the two, and she said something to the effect of now that she can truly recognize the spirit, it is rarely an emotional experience.
Intriguing. I do sometimes think I feel the Spirit differently than before my FC (and note that an experience with the Holy Ghost contributed to my FC), but not markedly different. I am able to discount some stuff now as likely emotion and/or confirmation bias. The feeling I most often associate with the Spirit now is a calm/peaceful feeling (I suppose this is the Comforter) – but it’s not really different than the pre-FC feeling. I would love to be able to separate the emotion and the Spirit more, but I do see the peaceful feeling as an emotion. Perhaps I have not truly felt the Spirit still? Or perhaps the speaker you mention doesn’t consider the feeling a…er…feeling.
NonTraditionalMom wrote:There are two very specific instances from my life where I really was being extremely obedient, but didn’t receive the guidance from the spirit that I expected. In the first case, some abuse happened in my home to one of my children. I was very active and obedient at the time and, in fact, was attending the temple during one of the instances of abuse. I have often wondered where the warning was, or why neither my priesthood-holding DH nor myself ever had any idea that something like this was happening in our home until well after the fact. Where was that spirit of warning to protect our innocent child and us? When I look back on that time, I can honestly say that there was nothing in my life that would have prevented the spirit from helping us, even that we were actively seeking spiritual guidance in our lives. And while I don’t think there is anyone in this crowd who believes that abuse could be warranted as some kind of lesson, please just don’t go there.
The second instance happened a few years ago when DH and I were trying to decide whether or not to have another baby. I fasted and prayed on my own, and I felt an overwhelming surety that I was supposed to have another child. When DH and I went to the temple with the question, I felt what I would describe as a very strong sense of the spirit the whole time– even the name of the person I was doing work for was a name we had discussed as one we liked for a daughter. I was absolutely sure that the answer was yes. After the session, however, my DH expressed a completely different experience. He was sure that our family was complete as it was, and his very clear answer was no. Ultimately, we decided not to have any more children, and although I can now see the wisdom in that decision, I am still confused at my experience in the temple. Did I just want to have another baby and sought confirmation where I could find it? Did I have a spiritual experience, but since DH is the priesthood holder, did his experience trump mine? Was the spirit just messing with me, or was that the spirit at all? Again, I was in the very obedient, TBM camp at the time.
My faith crisis was triggered by the stillbirth of our third child. She was full term just a few days from the scheduled delivery. Why did we (or our doctors, or priesthood leaders) not receive some sort of impression that she was in distress? I was serving as ward mission leader and my wife as primary president at the time.
I believe that this function of the holy spirit as warning giver to worthy LDS is largely a Mormonized version of the just world hypothesis. Good things (blessings) are supposed to happen to good people. Sometimes people that have been particularly struck with misfortune sacrifice their sense of self worth to maintain the just world view. IOW they may tell themselves that they must have been undeserving of God’s favor.
As for the second instance – I read a book about a young female BYU student that went on a few dates with a guy. He asked her to marry him but she really wasn’t into it. She told him to go home and pray about it. She knew that she did not want to marry him and therefore reasoned that the spirit would bear witness to this young man that the proposed marriage was not the correct course of action (she must have been hyper non-confrontational). Anyway he came back the next day with a sure witness from God that they should get married. At this point the young woman assumes that the young man holding the priesthood had a more direct link to the will of heaven and she MARRIES him!?!? BYU now specifically advises against trusting the spiritual promtings of others in the decision of who you should marry. I also read of an experiment along these lines. The experimenters found that when a person prayed to know if a particular course of action was supported by God, nearly always any impression received would confirm the individual’s previous position and/or inclinations.
For my money, I confine the spirit to the role of comforter. I have no arguments with people feeling comfort in their time of need. I have felt this comfort myself.
OTOH I am generally skeptical (but withholding final judgement) of tales of other people’s supernatural/miraculous experiences with the spirit.
I can see one line of reasoning where I would agree that feeling the spirit is the result of “tuning in” to righteousness/truth, and being open to accepting it. In that way I can equate it to obedience, where obedience = Christlike righteousness and not pharisaical list checking. The tuning in is the righteous act, and it does not depend on what you ate for breakfast. Orson wrote:The tuning in is the righteous act, and it does not depend on what you ate for breakfast.
Even if it was coffee?
Based on personal experience, I’ve seen no correlation between being obedient and feeling the Spirit. Some areas of my mission I was successful, others not so much, but same level of obedience. As an adult I do get emotional but I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s the Spirit and it’s definitely not because I’m righteous. I would say feeling the Spirit is dependent mostly on personality and openness to it – with the caveat that I have a hard time on a daily basis with feeling the spirit in a unique way, but I have had a few experiences that I only can classify as feeling the spirit. I do think keeping an openness to the possibility is important, even though many might say that simply is psychological and has nothing to do with an outside influencer. I might feel that way myself without the experiences I have had.
Years ago, a daughter was born with a horrific congenital heart condition. I felt very lifted by God that everything was going to be okay. We had to choose between letting her die, transplant, and a series of 3 surgeries. We felt led that the surgeries were the right choice. There was a 60% mortality rate with the first surgery. She did fine in surgery, coded in ICU a day afterwards, stabilized, and was fine. She was home a week after her surgery. I continued to feel uplifted and carried by God. We had already lost two older children to two completely unrelated medical conditions, and this just felt so different .. So GOOD .. I trusted God. Weeks went by, she was a hard baby to care for, very intense in her medical requirements, but I felt up to the challenge. All was going well. I continued to feel carried by God.
Then .. she very suddenly, unexpectedly died. And I felt robbed.
I lost my trust in God. I have never lost my belief or my faith .. But the thought process that God has the best interests of his children formost in his thoughts at all times .. No. That was gone.
As I looked around, and really paid attention, I was horrified at the pain I saw, and I was embarrassed that I had ignored other’s pain in the past. I had seen their pain as just part of God’s plan. Going to church, I too often heard people “God never gives you more than you can handle.” I started to ask them, “Show me where it says that.”
1 Corinthians 10:13For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.
The scripture is about temptation. God will never allow you to be tempted beyond your ability to feel His spirit. That is a far different thing than being given burdens that are more than you can physically, emotionally, financially, or spiritually endure.
Too many lessons at church were focused on “Live righteously and God will protect you.” Currently, I see that as a cultural lie. We cannot say, “We are here to be tried and tested” and also state that we will be protected through righteous living. Protected from what? From experiencing life?
There have been a few times in my life that I can truly say the Spirit bore witness to me of what I was supposed to do. There have been a couple times when my life has been saved through interventions that felt divine. But then I felt equally CARRIED while dealing with my daughter’s health issues. How do I trust?
I don’t think obedience is part of the equation. I’m not sure what is. I do know that we have an OBLIGATION to be God’s hands while here. I see that as our real purpose .. to help others without stopping to weigh or measure their worth or righteousness, but to simply help because they are children of God .. just like us.
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