How do you get through the conflicts?

Rob – I love that quote from Second Hand Lions. I love the movie, too.

My answer is a lousy cliche – “Some days are better than others”

Like you it’s not just FC or a bump in the road. I didn’t expect a bump free life. In many ways I geared up for so many bumps, unemployment, unexpected death, house fire, chronic illness or life changing health – this thing, not a chance. I was just mumbling to God about that fact, this has me on my backside in a way I can’t explain to myself.

New raging emotions that I had never had arise, simple pleasures like watching a movie can cause angst (don’t get me started on things like Tangled or Inside/Out. Last week it was the original Star Wars). And yes God has changed dramatically.

Some days though my heart seems to ride the waves of conflict better than others. Then other times the battle kicks into high gear. I want to shout, stomp, slap, do something to someone to get them to understand that I am being invaded. I didn’t do anything to get here and no one seems to have a good answer for getting out.

My best place is right here. I seriously find so much help and ideas listening to everyone else. We may even disagree, but every answer gives me a productive thought. I also am working on meditation. I have been at it for awhile and I think it helps me calm down. I also Happify.com. And am trying to imagine life as an impermanent event. If I didn’t plan for this or cause it – then maybe it will move along to something more productive. That’s my hope anyway.

I think you describe most of us. I hope others chime in.

For me, I define my faith crisis as this total shaking of my foundations (or at least my foundational beliefs). That’s why the FC is so painful and difficult. My FC also began as questions about the church or church teachings, but also spilled over into general Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Second Hand Lions is one of my favorite movies. We never hear all of Hub’s speech about what every man should know – but the part you quote – the part we do hear – is something every man should know IMO. It resonates with me, too. That’s actually one way I define scripture. To me there is canonized scripture (with which we are all familiar and which I sometimes take with a grain of salt – or a whole shaker of salt) and there is personal scripture. The personal scripture can come from the canon, but it can come from other places as well, including personal revelation, something profound someone else says, literature, and movies. Obi Wan’s “Many of the truths we cling to….” is scripture to me. (Really, really)

Anyway, as I was transitioning my faith in starting to come out of the crisis mode I also laid down some foundational truths like you did. They are my truths, just like your truths are yours. I do believe there is universal truth but I don’t believe all of us have discovered some parts of it (and we’re all in different places with it) and I believe there is some that none of us yet know. My foundation truths are probably a bit more basic than yours – I believe there is a Creator God and that He has a general love for us. I believe He wants us to love one another. On the other hand, prayer is a big sticky for me – I don’t believe in it in the way most (even non-Mormons) do. I move forward one day at a time, some days are much easier than others. Basically I try to be a good person and not be a big fat meanie head. :wtf: (I wanted to use a different word, but what I used is more appropriate for here – this is a family forum. )

I also like that quote from 2nd Hand Lions and think it has application…to a degree.

In a similar thought, in the sci fi movie Serenity:

Shepherd Book: I don’t care what you believe in, just believe in it.

There are some things in life that can’t be explained. We just have to move forward while we figure it out as we go. Faith helps us keep moving in a good direction and to keep caring about something, while waiting to figure it out.

I don’t think complete apathy leads much to good action or motivation to move. And I don’t think you become happier as you become idle.

So keep swimming…and find something to believe in you can cling to when the storms rage, and to believe in when the storms calm so you don’t become idle and depressed.

Always trade up.

If you find some things in Church do not inspire you now because of your new view or your FC, then don’t keep smashing that square peg into the round hole…find something new that does bring light and goodness into your world.

I have found books or visits to Buddhist gardens or nonmember friends to give a new perspective and refreshed view…and I can return to mormonism to apply new things to the same mormon principles that had stopped inspiring me. As I made choices to move forward, and refresh my faith, I can stayLDS and still not believe some things I previously did in the religion. If I discarded a bit too much, I repent and go back to the things I do feel are important I should not discard…and I believe in those things based on my experience of knowing I’m better with them than without them.

I own my religion.

That’s how I got through some conflicts, and still working through others.

Hub: Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love… true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

How about a slightly different angle, don’t focus on believing what’s true, focus on believing what you want to be true.

Excellent question. I have no answers. I am paddling just as fast as I can and I feel like I’m not making progress in any direction.

I look forward to reading input from others who seem to have better paddling technique.

I think my arms eventually got tired of paddling and I let the current take me. After a while I started to realize that the current was taking me on a pretty neat journey. There was less disappointment with not making progress down the path that I had imagined for myself. I started to realize that learning to find joy in whatever direction life took me was the progress I was supposed to be making all along.

…they have spilled over from LDS teachings to my entire belief in God. I believe He is there,…but my struggle is whether I want to “believe him” at all (as in put my trust, faith and hope in Him)…

This jumped out at me. Put your trust, faith and hope in what exactly? Try to follow me on this, …in my view you can only trust in God the same way we trust other people we know – IF – you interact with God in a similar way. If you see and hear God speaking ideas to you as you see an hear another human, then I understand the concept of trusting in Him. If on the other hand you are like the rest of us, we are stuck trying to refine our perceptions of God and what his will for us may be.

If you wonder whether you want to believe God, it sounds to me like you have your perceptions set up as something that may not be worth believing. Maybe I’m late to this point and you’re already working on here. Maybe that’s why it jumped out at me. To me it just sounds like someone is perverting the concept of God if they imagine something that is not worthy of trust and faith. Maybe they are allowing other humans (the arm of flesh) to shape God in their mind to something less divine.

To me it just sounds like someone is perverting the concept of God if they imagine something that is not worthy of trust and faith. Maybe they are allowing other humans (the arm of flesh) to shape God in their mind to something less divine.

Not far from the mark Orson. Actually,…it happens with regards to what Neal Maxwell would call “Hard Doctrine”.

We have a propensity in the LDS church (IMHO) to negate all of the times the blessings don’t flow. For example,…how many times do we fail to acknowledge that the single woman who pays her tithing still has her house forclosed, and finds herself homeless? How many times do we fail to acknowledge that the the promises made in priesthood blessings, with the SPIRIT present, are not fulfilled, and the death, sickness, or whatever else that was rebuked in the name of the Lord didn’t happen? IN the most general way I can say it,…how many times do we fail to acknowledge that there is no “ram in the thicket” and the sacrifice still happens?

And, in those cases, how common is it for “members” to respond: “Well, that was just the will of the Lord,…and you need to have faith”…as though faith is something easily grasped when promises from God seem to be ethereal and unsure.

I struggle with this type of doctrine, and I confess it has colored my ability to trust. At a fundamental level, like my quote about Uncle Hub,…I have a choice what to believe. I don’t like a God who is omnipotent, but chooses as a matter of policy as it were, to give commands with no explanation–just do it because I said so…and then there be examples over and over (and I know of many) where promised blessings are not forthcoming from obedience, and no explanation of why or why not.

I’ve heard others on this site say they feel God really isn’t that involved in our lives much, and that prayer is a nice concept; but what does it really accomplish? I understand those people. And, my own personal FC has gone through a lot of hoops and hurdles. At this point, part of what I am choosing to believe is a God of my own making (call that idolatry if you will, but I don’t care). I have tried, and find I can not believe in the God I have been taught of during my formative years. I need a God who, as the Givens have said, can weep.

I struggle with these same things. Sometimes there is a lack of acknowledgement that blessings don’t come or prayers aren’t answered but there are also a litany of excuses why not – lack of faith, not God’s will, “not now” etc. At the same time we have scripture and teachings that if we have faith all things are possible. I dislike the excuses and don;t believe the scriptures/teachings – all I have to do is look around me to prove the point.

I respect that you have reconciled your dissonance with your own concept of God – I think any of us who have struggled with these things have done so. I just happen to be one of those people who think God is uninvolved because for me that’s the only way it works.

I just read something recently from Elder Oaks. He said that there is no general precedence for God giving reasons for His commands. He just gives the command, and if we obey…well, there is suppose to be some blessing, but if not, we get punished in some way.

I believe you are referring to the following:

In a 1988 interview Elder Oaks was asked about the priesthood restriction and how the sudden reversal seems to confuse some members.

Elder Oaks said, “If you read the scriptures with this question in mind, “Why did the Lord Command this or why did the Lord command that?” you find that in less than one in a hundred commands was any reason given. It’s not the pattern of the Lord to give reasons. We can put reason to revelation. We can put reasons to commandments. When we do we are on our own. Some people put reasons to the one we’re talking about here, and they turned out to be spectacularly wrong. There is a lesson in that. The lesson I’ve drawn is that I decided a long time ago that I had faith in the command and I had no faith in the reasons that had been suggested for it.”

When asked if the reasons he was talking about include reasons given by GA’s, Elder Oaks responded in part, “The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent.”

Now this was in 1988 so we can cut Elder Oaks a degree of slack since it was so long ago. But I do believe it is instructive that the church has since condemned the priesthood ban as not from God. If I were to apply Elder Oaks’ reasoning from 1988 I would have followed a policy that did not make any logical sense believeing that God had commanded it so – when down the road it was discovered that God didn’t command it after all.

We have a propensity in the LDS church (IMHO) to negate all of the times the blessings don’t flow. For example,…how many times do we fail to acknowledge that the single woman who pays her tithing still has her house forclosed, and finds herself homeless? How many times do we fail to acknowledge that the the promises made in priesthood blessings, with the SPIRIT present, are not fulfilled, and the death, sickness, or whatever else that was rebuked in the name of the Lord didn’t happen? IN the most general way I can say it,…how many times do we fail to acknowledge that there is no “ram in the thicket” and the sacrifice still happens?

Yup, this is pretty much my FC in a nutshell. But I am compelled to acknowledge that I do still have blessings. I live in one of the most free and economically prosperous nations on the planet. I have a supportive extended family. I have a good wife, a nice home, two beautiful children, and a steady income. I am fairly young with good health. Am I ungrateful for focusing on the time that I felt God had abandoned me? Is the glass half full or half empty? Is it a mark of faith to say half full? Is it a mark of doubt to say half empty?

I just happen to be one of those people who think God is uninvolved because for me that’s the only way it works.

I likewise have had to disassemble my concept of an interventionist God. There just didn’t seem to be any reliable pattern for relative blessings or hardship. What is described in “the pride cycle” did not hold true to my individual life.

I remain thankful for life. I am thankful for this world that has so much that is inspiring and meaningful. I will take it with gladness even amongst the sorrow and pain.

I need a God who, as the Givens have said, can weep.

When I get back home, before my tears are forever washed away, I want my Father God to weep with me for a moment. To acknowledge that pain and suffering is real and not just a result of shortsightedness.