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Yesterday’s Gospel Doctrine lesson was about the twelve falling asleep during the atonement. Our teacher asked why they couldn’t do something as simple as stay awake. There were a variety of responses to this, and I noted that the 12 are portrayed as very flawed humans as a contrast to Jesus’ divinity: they fall asleep and miss the atonement, they bicker over who among them is the greatest, they deny Christ at the crucial moment, they consistently misunderstand Jesus’ teachings and parables (and instead of asking him, they reason among themselves). Maybe that’s the point. They are supposed to be flawed and human to remind us not to rely on the arm of flesh but instead to turn to the source, the one who can save.
Nobody who has read the NT will see the kind of leader hero worship we sometimes see today. It’s just not there. Each of the twelve were trying to work out their own salvation, doing the best they could, and always falling short.
Wow and well done. I will keep that perfect answer close to my heart. I like it. Thanks for the thought. I don’t know enough to know. How did they get from the raw, flawed portrayals in the oral tradition and NT to full-blown veneration, adoration, relic-obsessed worshipping? It’s also interesting that we’re so quick to condemn the Catholic church in particular, but don’t recognize our propensity to do very much the same thing. (On a budget, without all the cool art and architecture.) Ann asked Quote:How did they get from the raw, flawed portrayals in the oral tradition and NT to full-blown veneration, adoration, relic-obsessed worshipping?
Our leader was murdered. Joseph and Hyrum’s death in cold blood, I believed, stamped us with a Prophet dedication like none other. If Joseph had lived out his natural life, I think our practices would be much different. But martyrdom, and expulsion, wrapped us into a place we still can’t get out of.
On your question
Quote:It’s also interesting that we’re so quick to condemn the Catholic church in particular, but don’t recognize our propensity to do very much the same thing.
The difference IMHO, a Catholic doesn’t have to sustain the Pope to participate. We do. They have no higher religious exercise such as the temple, that requires “Sustaining the Pope.” Yes people in Catholicism do support the Pope and they can move up in the clergy, etc. But all of that is choice.
It’s the difference between an apple and an olive. They both grow on trees, both are circular, both can are edible. Everything else is different.
Ann wrote:How did they get from the raw, flawed portrayals in the oral tradition and NT to full-blown veneration, adoration, relic-obsessed worshipping?
I think it all comes down to human nature. People create celebrities, religious or otherwise. Power can also go to people’s heads, leaders may insist that they be worshiped. The process doesn’t even have to start from within, if world culture is such that leaders are worshiped that’s what people are going to think you are supposed to do with their leaders. We also mythologize the distant past, or any past era that falls outside of our working memory. The ordinary becomes legend.
Here’s a few trains of thought:
The original 12 apostles must have somehow been better than the rest of us because of the experiences they shared. Jesus hand selected them. If we were as good as them we would be having those same experiences.
God selected our current leaders. They must somehow be better than the rest of us.
I need something a little more tangible to hold on to and I don’t see Jesus anywhere. I can look to my current leader to help my faith.
My friend got to touch
theseer stone used to translate the BoM. I wish I could do that. I think we elevate people because deep down we want to be elevated. A popular person serves as a real life example of someone that has risen above, someone that became important. That part of our natures is probably why people aspire to certain callings in the church. The calling is seen as something that can both validate virtue and make us feel important.
Relics are tangible objects that connect us with the legends we’ve constructed from people in the past. It makes worship less ethereal.
If we reflect on the flaws we remind ourselves that people we have elevated are just like us, the illusion fades, we lose our real world example of rising above it all, and we have to fall back on intangibles like faith and belief.
Nibbler wrote Quote:and we have to fall back on intangibles like faith and belief.
For me it’s faith and hope. Or maybe just hope. You made some great points Nibbler.
It also seems the apostles of the NT were reproved for not guessing correctly what they should have done. I guess I wonder why falling asleep was so wrong? Yet, we dissect these actions and look for meaning to draw from it to add to gospel doctrine classes. Quote:36 ¶Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.
v.45 Seems to suggest they could sleep on. Should they have been given greater detailed instruction on when to sleep and when not to? Or should they have known better?
Or was it payback for the time they were in the ship, the tempest raged, they needed him…
Quote:Matthew 8:24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
It was through reproving the mortal apostles that lessons were taught in the bible. Joseph Smith was also reproved multiple times. It seems it goes with the job description…lead the way by being chastised and learn from it.
My guess is that the point of the story is to show how alone the Savior was through some stages of his tasks. Alone, and betrayed, and still fulfilled his tasks. He understands our feelings when we struggle.
I find it interesting that the cycle repeats itself three times. Peter, Mr. Threepeat. Lovest thou me?
Watch with me.
I know him not.
It’s probably some literary device to give the action more significance.
3 was a powerful number denoting completion. It is the perfect literary device for that time. This story also highlights perhaps better than any other two important things:
1) Biblical stories simply are not consistent, and, sometimes, contradictory;
2) Likening all things unto ourselves is a powerful concept with much good potential, but it also can get incredibly wonky and convoluted.
Love the insight, Hawk.
The Gospels seem to make plain that Jesus was the messiah based on his words and actions over his ministry but they were written 40+ years after the fact by believers. Given that it is understandable that when His ministry was actually happening his teaching may not have been as clear to the twelve and that they really weren’t as clueless as they seemed. GBSmith wrote:The Gospels seem to make plain that Jesus was the messiah based on his words and actions over his ministry but they were written 40+ years after the fact by believers. Given that it is understandable that when His ministry was actually happening his teaching may not have been as clear to the twelve and that they really weren’t as clueless as they seemed.
Good point, and I was trying to make that point too…that it is written that way to teach lessons about Jesus making teaching points, like how alone Christ felt, or how alone he actually was. But they may not have been as clueless as it seems.Regardless, the teaching moment is there.
GBSmith wrote:The Gospels seem to make plain that Jesus was the messiah based on his words and actions over his ministry but they were written 40+ years after the fact by believers. Given that it is understandable that when His ministry was actually happening his teaching may not have been as clear to the twelve and that they really weren’t as clueless as they seemed.
I agree – I think much of what is written in the gospels is 20/20 hindsight (and sometimes embellished a bit besides).
Heber13 wrote:
It was through reproving the mortal apostles that lessons were taught in the bible. Joseph Smith was also reproved multiple times. It seems it goes with the job description…lead the way by being chastised and learn from it.I don’t remember the last time a member of the Q15 was reprimanded in public. That is one thing I admired about Joseph Smith – that he was willing to be reprimanded and learn from it.
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