"You should have known"

We hear people say the Church is the same everywhere. That leads to thinking our experiences are the same as all members – or, at least, most of them.

The Church isn’t the same everywhere, and, as a result, our experiences aren’t the same. The Church in any location is an aggregate of the members in that location, including us. As nibbler said, that makes it hard for people to recognize and understand each other when radical differences exist.

I knew about the seer stone at a young age – because I was a voracious reader who loved history as a child and who had parents who encouraged me to read “adult” things about history. I have friends with whim I went to school who probably are surprised by this essay. There have been numerous things written about the seer stone over time, including Ensign articles from time to time, but not everyone read them – and there is no fault in that. People read what people read, and availability is not the same as instruction.

I also am a historian by nature, so I am less prone to discredit or be bothered by cultural oddities. I am much more geared to accept and even expect them – and my orientation, if you will, helps these things be less shocking and more understandable to me. Not everyone is geared that way – and that’s okay.

The key, I think, is charity. Just as we want others to understand and accept our struggles, we ought to try to understand and accept their lack of struggles. We simple are who we are, and mutual respect is the key. If we aren’t getting it, we need to give it – even if it is unconditional.

Growing up, whenever I asked people what the seer stone was, I was told that it was another name for the urim and thumim. I think that there has been a lot of confusion as to what the seer stone was.

I only learned about it after watching an episode of South Park and then doing some research. I’m still not exactly sure what it is, besides being a rock.

I don’t believe there has been any clear explanation in church correlated material as to what the seer stone actually was, and it does not seem like the church has wanted us to know the details. Why else would a church who loves to use pictures not share with us the picture until now? So, no, there is no way that you should have known. Maybe that saying is a way for members to feel unquestioningly obedient.

The thing is, Paulista, there is nothing objectively inaccurate in that video when it comes to the translation process. According to multiple accounts, Joseph might have spent some of his time “translating” in that way. We don’t have anything that says he always used the seer stone or that he always worked in any one way, especially when there was a drawn curtain between him and the scribe, which was the bulk of the time.

As we have said in other threads, when you produce a very short summary history of anything, you tend to pick either the most controversial parts or the least controversial parts – depending totally on the overall point or impression you want to make. It happens all the time, and it would be impossible to tell a lengthy story and not do it.

We should be careful in our concern about not having known about this to make the same mistake on the end of the spectrum and deny aspects that did, probably did or might have occurred – or to over criticize things like a very short summary of a very long story.

Having said that, I am not aware of any video portraying the use of the seer stone. That is a shame – although it might be impossible to portray accurately, since I’m sure we have a god description from Joseph or anyone else about the actual mechanics of that process. We know enough about the historical use of seer stones to come close and perhaps be accurate, but even then purists would probably criticize that portrayal, as well.

I would love to see a video now that we have this essay that portrays the process.

Boa Tarde Paulista!

Paulista wrote “

In the interest of full disclosure, this (honesty/integrity) is one of my key issues with the Church. In my mind there is a big difference between being honest and “nothing objectively inaccurate”.

You nailed it.

Growing up, I was encouraged to stick with the information provided by the church. I was told other sources couldn’t be trusted to tell the truth. I followed those suggestions.

The more I read and the more I study, the more twisted the bigger picture is.

There are a thousand things I want to say, some of them are just repeats of what others have said on this thread, some of it would just be me screaming one more time as one more person experiences the pain you are going through. I am a mender by nature. Every personality test, Strength discovery test and so on has a version of my mending desires in it. Today as I read your post I wanted to be sick. Not because of what you wrote, but because you had to write it.

I didn’t know about the seer stone, Joseph’s polygamy, Mountain Meadows Massacre, Emma carrying the bible translation stuck in her skirts as she hiked in the snow for miles, and so on and so on. Some of it hits hard, some rolls off my back. That doesn’t make me better than anyone it’s just my personality. What doesn’t roll off my back is the handling of the stuff, the blowing off of people “who should have known”, the dismissive-ness, the hurt and the damage. That above all ticks me off. There are marriages, families, members and non-members whose lives, harmony, joy, peace are all wrapped up in the results and I am not pleased with the product out-lay.

So – I don’t think you should have known, I also don’t think you should be blamed, and I do think someone needs to take some serious responsibility for this. Yes. No one is perfect and I don’t think the team at the top caused the pain, but they represent the brand, and owe the brand that responsibility. IMHO.