Zen: "To remove suffering, one must remove desire"

I can’t really help articulate it, but I do know my daughter in college says she finds it interesting that when she stops looking for it so much…she seems to start to find she gets asked on more dates and has more fun.

Not sure why that is.

I don’t believe the answer to happiness in life is to remove all risk of being hurt by standing on the sidelines and watching others experience life.

I think you find peace in who you are, and reduce suffering by learning what the universe around you has to offer you, and not wishing you were in someone else’s shoes.

There are lots of good reasons to get married or have relationships. With or without Christ in your life. And lots of good reasons to believe in Christ, with or without marriage.

Denying the physical works for some people; it doesn’t for more people.

We rightly criticize celibacy as an ideal in other religions, while we preach it for our own who don’t find love inside the church membership or aren’t heterosexual. This is one case where we have a hard time understanding the destructive nature of our cherished double standards.

I am not opposed to celibacy for some people, but I am opposed to the idea that God can replace physical desires for many people – and especially for anyone who wants to marry but gives up hope of marriage.

So many good thoughts and such a real topic. For you Rob it is about marriage, for another it is about a happy marriage (an ideal partner), for another it is longing for a child, or a family. Desire, yearning, hurting seem to be universal and yes we tend to as a society, a religion, etc. come up with quick cliche’s that assuage no grief. In my Zen-type study I have recently come across the idea of meditating on that pain, giving your full attention to it, and then holding it with compassion. Telling the pain, it is valued, loved, beautiful, cared for. I don’t know if it will help your particular wrestle, but I have found that it softens mine or gives it room to grow. I hold it in my imagination as I would my child in pain.

Good luck. God bless.

Wow,…thanks everyone for the posts. I didn’t expect there to really be much feedback on this topic.

I was once a school teacher, and learned–because it was required–a bit about adolescent psychology. I have also learned a thing or two about anti-social behavior.

Do you know how common it is for young people to have their feelings dashed, and then to steel themselves against ever being hurt again?! A young person will say inside: “Well, you didn’t help me then, and I don’t need your help anyway,..(so I am going to withdraw and never allow you close to me again.)” This folks,…is universal. This pattern of being burned and withdrawing happens over and over and over and over and over and over……..I’ve seen it happen in children of all ages, adults of all ages, relationships of all types, even in business or social settings. And, it appears this Zen idea I’ve voice is a kindof religious acceptance of the whole idea, just in a more formal way.

If, for example, the child didn’t expect the parent or friend to connect and be with them in the first place, then they have no need to withdraw and protect themselves from their dashed hopes happening again. Children often move down this pathway, but in an unhealthy way; they destroy the relationship because they are hurt and their needs were neglected. They think that if they can distance themselves from that need, denying it by blocking the person who betrayed them, they can somehow cope better. It ends up in sadness, anger, and in some cases, criminality. The bottom line is always the same: they had a need, it wasn’t met, and they have reacted by trying to block and in many cases punish the person who didn’t meet the need.

I can’t stand it when church doctrine begins to slip into this Zen arena because, like I said above, it negates the feeling or the longing in the first place. It makes “longing” bad as it were, and it enthrones the idea that sadness and all the rest, all of those emotional responses, don’t need to happen,…they just need to vanish away.

Examples:

–> Well, it must not be God’s will for you to have a relationship in this life, so you need to stop worrying about it and just live the gospel.

–> I’m sorry you lost your house because you couldn’t make the payment, but it is still more important for you to pay your tithing. Just don’t worry so much about earthly things, God will take care of you.

–> God’s blessings aren’t always in this life so you need to stop thinking or expecting them. God will bless you whenever He chooses. Your job is to just be faithful, and not have these unreasonable expectations, or put a timeline on God.

Each of these messages has a subtle implicit message to remove the desire in the first place so as to remove the suffering. And each of these devalue the human experience. Longing and suffering are also human.

If and when the earthly rewards come, you can accept them with humility, as an addendum to your life, and not the purpose of it. And you will never be miserable that your selfless service never engendered earthly reward, because earthly reward was never your motive.

I agree in principle with this, but this is a DAMN difficult principle to follow when you are hungry.

Is it wrong to feel lonely? It it wrong to feel hunger inside to be loved and love someone? And, the message of “Well, you just need to have more faith in Christ” can be insulting, at least to me. It negates the feelings as valid in the first place.

I don’t know that this will make sense, but I’ll try to share my perspective. No, it is not wrong to feel lonely, it is expected. I don’t see the message of having faith in Christ as a replacement for loneliness, I can see how it may fill the void in one sense, but also is not meant to cover all the same ground. I see “just” have more faith as an over simplification. Where loneliness can become a cancer to the soul and keep eating away to the point of destruction – faith in Christ can end that regression and “fill the void” in that sense. I don’t believe the intention is to say it eliminates all signs or feelings of loneliness. The desire for companionship is a call for a fuller experience of love in life. I believe Christ backs the fullest experience in life, and actually becomes a catalyst toward that fulfillment. In my view the call to lean on Christ is a call to gain strength. When we are stronger we come from a better position to seek our life.

I take the Zen saying as too much desire can actually weaken us, because suffering (in a sense) comes from an imbalance between our desires and our personal/spiritual strength. A state of suffering can be a downward spiral where we lose more strength and suffer even more. If we moderate our desire to equal our abilities then we can build strength which will gradually allow us to fulfill more desire. It is a tricky proposition but an opportunity for personal growth when taken with proper helpings of faith and love.

Like I said I don’t know if that makes sense. It’s in there somewhere but the words are not easy.

Orson, your comments are very astute. It strikes a balance, and I like the way you have said this actually. The concern, like I mentioned above, is when the message of faith in Christ is pushed beyond a balance and becomes an end to itself. I think you understand my point as well. This balance is tricky because, at least from what I have learned at this point in my life, is it takes experience to learn the balance. Taking things in moderation, learning to respond instead of react, learning to manage loneliness while moving forward with faith…those are lessons that are not easy…

Orson, your comments are very astute. It strikes a balance, and I like the way you have said this actually. The concern, like I mentioned above, is when the message of faith in Christ is pushed beyond a balance and becomes an end to itself. I think you understand my point as well. This balance is tricky because, at least from what I have learned at this point in my life, is it takes experience to learn the balance. Taking things in moderation, learning to respond instead of react, learning to manage loneliness while moving forward with faith…those are lessons that are not easy…

Yes, not easy at all. I try to look at things from the question of “how can I grow?” and things that are not easy enable the greatest growth – which eventually leads to greater peace and fulfillment.

I came back to this thread to edit my comment, I wanted to say that people can’t control every part of their lives. It is not their fault when suffering finds them. Some people don’t want to find their empowerment and take responsibility for whatever pieces they can control to make the degree of changes that they are able to make. I can’t condemn them for their choices or say they’re doing it wrong, I can only share what I have found in my own experience. That is all any of us can do.

We are on the same page in lots of ways Orson.

There is a tendency to equate suffering with disobedience, or basically with lack of faith (which is also akin to disobedience). Those who take this stance, IMHO, are often ones who have not had enough wounds themselves. Something about being wounded and feeling sorrow and loss, even suffering, can season a soul. It matures ones ability to have empathy and concern, even love and compassion.

I am learning in my FC and life to be more understanding of those who miss the mark. I know I miss the mark often, so patience is certainly in order. But, I do NOT believe that faith in Christ is meant to cover and negate some concerns. Loneliness comes BECAUSE you are alone. If the same God who said: “It is not good for man to be alone” really means “just have faith in me, and you don’t have to ever be alone because I will do everything for you, even make it OK for you to not have a spouse”, well that is a subtle way to introduce an oxymoron type of argument.

And those who say: “Oh, don’t worry about being alone,…just have faith in Christ”… well, that doesn’t help much. Its like saying to someone who is bleeding: “Oh, don’t worry about the blood gushing from your cut arm…lets just go to church”. It misses the point. Lets address the wound.

As I recall, didn’t Alma say something about being supported “in your trials”?….not delivered from all of them, but perhaps supported so you can endure?