Tough to Be a Mormon Man – Amen

I was interested in #2.

SAHDs and single or divorced Dads are persona non grata

I joined the church in the early ’70’s (not 1870’s). I live in the midwest & never lived outside of my current stake.

I never had a problem dating in the church or outside.

My ex wife moved to California & didn’t seem to have any problems either.

Both of us married our new spouses in the temple.

My Bishop at the time said that my ex would never date or marry someone in the church.

Hawkgrrrl are you talking about SLC & Utah or worldwide?

I was skimming the comments and this one stood out:

The assumptions made in general priesthood meeting that as a dude you’re obviously addicted to porn. Not cool.

Some time ago we had The Porn Talk™ in PH. As is typical with the weightier topics the BP was given time at the end of the lesson. I was a little surprised by his approach. I forget the specific numbers he mentioned so that portion of my paraphrasing is made up. He said something along the lines of: Studies show that 70% of all men are addicted to porn. There are a lot of people in your quorum but only a few of you have been by to see me about porn. Statistically that means a lot of you have a problem with porn but aren’t coming by to see me. My door is open. I want to help.

His intentions were noble and he may have even been correct but the approach left room for improvement. No one is perfect and to be sure it’s a difficult/uncomfortable subject to address. Still it’s just another way that it can be hard to be a Mormon man.

Wife: “We had a really great lesson in RS today. How was yours?”

Me, a young High Priest: “Meh.”

Wife: “Oh, well ours was about strengthening families. What was yours about?”

Me: “Misogyny and xenophobia.”

Wife: “I’m so sorry.”

😆 I’ve had several Sundays where DW and I have had a similar conversation.

I’m divorced and pay most of my take-home pay in alimony. My ex never got a job, never got schooling, and never wanted it–and I tried as best I could to encourage that.

It never ends,…even after the divorce. In Utah, the alimony laws (and there are some on the books–though there is some wiggle room) can and are often influenced by which judge you end up getting. The push still is that if you are the bread-winner, you pay–especially if you are a man in this state.

#1 is institutionalized in many places.

I laughed out loud in a couple places. Men as nurturers second only to seahorses. Lessons as coma-inducing in EQ! Phrases I’m go to have to alter enharmonically and then make my own, as I do with riffs in jazz improvisation.

One thing that is hard about being a Mormon man is the financial pressure. I know you mentioned breadwinner, but the pressure of tithing, and fast offerings also makes it hard to get ahead. It’s stressful too. And as a leader, the number of times we were asked to make up the fast offering deficit in our Ward councils and PEC meetings, it was frustrating.

As a man in the church, I’ve broken most of the norms Hawk shares, throughout my life. When we couldn’t have children easily, I didn’t sweat it and my wife went to work. Out of debt with savings and peace of mind in a year. Stopped climbing the priesthood ladder and am much more able to balance career, service and family than before. YES! To the call-outs and chastisement men get (I wonder how Hawk knows this — perhaps through her husband?). I’ve been told to repent of bad home teaching by SP’s after the quorum went out and visited 35 families above and beyond their regular load the week previously, had a SP counselor divide us into the HT-doers and the “slackers”, and encouraged a debate between the two! Been chastised as a group for asking to be released from callings.

Oh — and don’t forget the corollary to Hawk’s comment that women are treated carefully and men are ridden by the leadership. I have learned NOT to get into any kind of conflict with women in the church. It happened twice and I believe that both played the man card in some kind of complaint above my head, acted in extermely harsh ways and didn’t receive censure. I don’t know what they said to the people above me, but the punishment I received was harsh — and without adequate listening to both sides. To the point that I couldn’t sleep for a week in some cases. I have a feeling the culture of being hard on the men may have had something to do with it.

The advantages I do see is that in my work, I never got many opportunities to be a leader. I don’t look the part, although I am one. Been told outright in interviews by different people at the beginning of my career.

In the church, the leadership opportunities were always there — and I got to work alongside talented people and do some great things. Probably due to the shortages of male leaders that our culture creates. A successful entrepreneur, an international HR manager, a professor of global business, as a Stake Exec Sec, I was at the feet of the SPresidency in one area — successful business development managers, bank managers, and regional sales managers. I suppose the opportunities would subside if there was more competition from all adults — although I don’t begrudge it. The best managers I have ever reported to have mostly been women.

I would add the chair-setting up and moving requirements that men buy into when they join the church. It should be part of the baptismal interview as it’s lifelong commitment!!

Those aren’t great odds. Are those men all adulterous pigs who deserve whatever they get or are they just lonely sad sacks? I found those numbers very sad.

A pattern I have heard about is that as women get older, their interest in physical intimacy declines. Men still have the drives. Yet the women aren’t interested in helping the men fulfil those needs. So, they seek extra-marital satisfaction. I’ve seen it in the family members who are willing to be open with me about it. I suspect that is part of the problem.

I hear a couple men committed suicide in Canada over the Ashley Madison breach.

I was also reading a book recently about abuse of men, of all things. Apparently, men have to be very careful because the courts, society, and the powers that grant privilege to others are very skewed against men. I know that I have to be VERY careful in my relationships with female students to make sure we are always in a public place when I help them. Doors are never closed, and I’m really careful not to allow any contact, such as knees, feet or the sides of our arms as I sit at computers to help them. We actually had a meeting about it a few years ago and our Provost/Dean of Academic Affairs told us that one complaint, whether founded or not, could ruin us.

I don’t like that kind of power in the hands of anyone.

Apparently, men have to be very careful because the courts, society, and the powers that grant privilege to others are very skewed against men.

Oh yeh…this is VERY true. There is a big population in Utah in the court system that are not very nice to men: the women get custody, they get protected, they get control.

I have a funny story to tell…it would be funnier if it wasn’t true. I had a friend who worked in a secure government place. He got in a fight with his wife and tried to leave. His son, freaking out, called the police, and this friend was arrested BECAUSE he was the man–his wife actually was the one who got violent (as the child himself said). The officer abused him in the arrest, and also abused their child. When my friend sought legal council because this arrest threatened his work position, his attorney sneered about the charge and expressed anger at “UTAH”. The attorney told him that just the other day he had a client (a man) come to him for legal council because he had been arrested because his wife broke a china dish over his head. He was the one attacked, but BECAUSE he was the man, he got arrested.

In Utah, if there is domestic violence, the man is almost always the one arrested. And, as is being proved over and over, the man is not always the aggressor.

I know that I have to be VERY careful in my relationships with female students to make sure we are always in a public place when I help them.

Some of those little darlings know the power they wield as well.

I taught in the public school system for a little while,…7th, 8th, and 9th grade. I was in my room during the first lunch break and I could hear 2 female students walking down the hallway. They were talking in vulgar terms about how they hated one of the teachers. One girl said to the other: “Oh, all you have to say is that he tried to touch you,…” They were obviously discussing how to retaliate toward that man, and how to make it stick.

I couldn’t believe my ears.

I’ve known of some pretty bad things happening where certain people DID deserve to do long and difficult jail time, but abuse happens both ways, and things do skew toward anti-man.

This isn’t just within the church. But men who are divorced or widowed often find that they are now isolated in ways that women aren’t. Women get custody of the social structure. There is a study that shows post divorce, men die 7 years younger than they would without the divorce, whereas the stress of divorce only shortens a woman’s life by 2 years. These are averages, obviously, but the key differentiator is that women usually manage the social support in a marriage.

Another factor, speaking from personal experience, is some men welcome the isolation. After a tough divorce or relationship, why go out and try to sign up for more relationship connections that brought so much exhaustion in the past?? For a time, I preferred a quiet home with my dog and a football game than socializing or getting well-intentioned support from others about things I don’t wish to talk about. It’s not depression to be happy being by myself. Sometimes it is simply easier and refreshing. Who is defining “receiving social support” as healthier or better than “taking personal responsibility on myself”? Depending upon the support of others sounds like a weakness to some men. I can learn to cook and do laundry and take care of my kids…I just may have less time and energy to want to take 11 year old scouts camping. So … isolation can be the result of prioritizing for me, not something I need support to keep me doing other things other people think I should do.