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I’ve been talking with people in my ward about diversity at church…and how different people have different needs. Some people stop coming to church for a whole bunch of reasons. As I home teach or visit people, I am interested what they want out of a church experience. Quote:Is my experience in the Church working for me? Is it bringing me closer to Christ? Is it blessing me and my family with peace and joy as promised in the gospel?
I’d like to discuss this further, and learn more perspectives.
My opinion is that there are so many different answers to what people want out of church, it isn’t so simple and never is accurate to label someone like “inactive” or “lost their testimony” or “became offended” or any other label for why people stay away or don’t find the church working. There are usually valid reasons a person is on their journey and where they are at. It sometimes manifests itself by them no longer attending church, or sometimes they keep attending but they don’t feel it is working. Those manifestations or behaviors don’t make a person “good” or “bad”, “right” or “wrong”. It is just their experience. Not one thing works for all.
I wish church was a safe place for all to come. Come bring questions. Come with sins. Come with frustrations. Find peace and love at church, even if there are differences. I am not sure if that is possible.
Why do you think some people don’t find the church working for them?
What do you want to see at church that would make it work better?
I don’t think this is the only answer, but I think that some feel a need to be around those that confirm the way they feel/believe is ok even if many others in the world don’t see things the same way. Which is basically the same reason I come here. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LookingHard wrote:I don’t think this is the only answer, but I think that some feel a need to be around those that confirm the way they feel/believe is ok even if many others in the world don’t see things the same way. Which is basically the same reason I come here.
Do you find that feeling in the church? …that you are around those that confirm what you feel/believe is ok?Nope. Not much. I seem to get confused looks when I say that I put following God ahead of church Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Church isn’t working for me. I am working in and for the Church.
I think there is a critical difference between those statements.
I read the options and found myself really without a category that felt acceptable to me. On so many levels, it feels inappropriate to expect any organization to change in order to meet my needs.
For the longest time, I felt sonwhow broken, as the church wasn’t an easy fit for me. In some ways, I am broken, in other ways, I am feeling more whole than ever. It is my choice to choose to stay LDS or not. It is my choice whether I conform or not. The reality is that I will learn to interact with the church, as is, or I will move on.
The church cannot change to meet so many individual mandates nor should it. We as a group would lose respect for the church if it changed to meet our ever changing needs. One might not like the church stance, but one must respect their slow pattern of change.
There are some things in church culture that I would like to see changed, but even then, it seems like the ultimate hubris to expect changes to suit my needs.
amateurparent wrote:I read the options and found myself really without a category that felt acceptable to me.
So I’m not the only one. The categories cover the bases but I didn’t find myself in any of them.
Old-Timer wrote:The Church isn’t working for me.
I am working in and for the Church.
I think there is a critical difference between those statements.
I think it’s an interdependent relationship. If there’s too much give and not enough take the individual will suffer. If there’s too much take and not enough give the collective will eventually suffer.
The church is not working for me. (The Gospel is). What does the church need to change?1.
Public wedding firstand not having to wait one year for temple sealing. 2.
Three hour Sunday worshipneeds to be shortened 3.
Not having to be part of the “mold”. There is more than one way to be a member of the church. Example…… Early morning Seminary does not work for everyone yet I am not allowed any other option for my kids (even though the options exist). 4.
Unrealistic expectations. I cannot go to church for 3 hours on Sunday, have FHE, get my kids to early morning Seminary, get them to mutual, do genealogy, attend the temple, feed the missionaries, share the BoM with my neighbor, cook for the sister that just had a baby AND earn money and raise my children. I cannot do all that!!!! I love Pres. Uchtdorf’s Saturday morning conference talk because when I am asked why I don’t do such and such, I say
“I am taking President Uchtdorf’s advice and simplifying my approach to the Gospel”.Elder Uchdorf knows exactly what the church is doing to its members when he said:
“But sometimes we take the beautiful lily of God’s truth and gild it with layer upon layer of man-made good ideas, programs, and expectations. Each one, by itself, might be helpful and appropriate for a certain time and circumstance, but when they are laid on top of each other, they can create a mountain of sediment that becomes so thick and heavy that we risk losing sight of that precious flower we once loved so dearly.”My question is…..now that they know that they are doing this, do you think things will change?It doesn’t work for me, and while I’d like to take Pres U’s advice and cut out the things that don’t work (like the temple), I’m walking the tightrope of keeping my husband happy. He expects me to pay tithing, he expects me to hold a TR or else he will label me as apostate. Not being called apostate is fairly important to me. The funny thing is, I asked DH the other day if the gospel brings him joy, if attending the 3 hour meeting block brings him closer to Heavenly Father. He said no. He’s openly admitted to being uncomfortable in the temple. I’m not sure what makes me all that different from him or his reasons more valid than mine.
BuffetMormon wrote:3.
Not having to be part of the “mold”. There is more than one way to be a member of the church. Example…… Early morning Seminary does not work for everyone yet I am not allowed any other option for my kids (even though the options exist). 4.
Unrealistic expectations. I cannot go to church for 3 hours on Sunday, have FHE, get my kids to early morning Seminary, get them to mutual, do genealogy, attend the temple, feed the missionaries, share the BoM with my neighbor, cook for the sister that just had a baby AND earn money and raise my children. I cannot do all that!!!! I love Pres. Uchtdorf’s Saturday morning conference talk because when I am asked why I don’t do such and such, I say
“I am taking President Uchtdorf’s advice and simplifying my approach to the Gospel”.Elder Uchdorf knows exactly what the church is doing to its members when he said:
“But sometimes we take the beautiful lily of God’s truth and gild it with layer upon layer of man-made good ideas, programs, and expectations. Each one, by itself, might be helpful and appropriate for a certain time and circumstance, but when they are laid on top of each other, they can create a mountain of sediment that becomes so thick and heavy that we risk losing sight of that precious flower we once loved so dearly.”My question is…..now that they know that they are doing this, do you think things will change?
I do think things will change, but as we always say, it is a large ship. While some people thrive in leadership positions where they add more layers that they are comfortable with, or even feel rewarded being the one to add “the next new great idea” layer, not everyone is going to benefit from that.My SP is already on a kick to begin taking Uchtdorf to heart in our stake, and simplifying is the key.
However, it will not be relaxing on standards like tea and coffee. It will be trying to reduce meetings and not burdening families with more callings. It will be not having HPG leaders try to 100% home teach every person on the list, but to find those on the rosters that want HTers and then strive for 100% of those.
I think they will miss the point for some people, because they will not want to back off what prior leaders have taught. And so it will take time for them to see they are missing the point.
Instead, bold changes, like less than 3 hours of church, cannot be done unless it comes directly from SLC.
So…while people are hearing Pres Uchtdorf…local leaders will be limited on what they can and cannot do about it. It takes time.
Me personally…I am specifically working to see if I can make changes in my ward with my small circle of influence for this area:
BuffetMormon wrote:3. Not having to be part of the “mold”. There is more than one way to be a member of the church.
I want every person that has different situations (like my divorce situation) to feel comfortable in our ward. I start by teaching classes and having these discussions in Sunday School…so active members start to challenge their thoughts about how accepting they are of others who are not like them. I discuss with my kids the news articles about children of gay couples. In short…I’m out talking to people to get a pulse on how accepting the church can be, so people of all stripes and flavors feel there is a safe place to go to. (And I may be working against my bishop as I do so…he is striving to protect the flock).At the end of the day, I may not have any influence to change the church from the inside. But perhaps I make a difference to my kids or friends I talk to … so others know they aren’t alone feeling like the church over-emphasizes the mold.
Joni wrote:The funny thing is, I asked DH the other day if the gospel brings him joy, if attending the 3 hour meeting block brings him closer to Heavenly Father. He said no. He’s openly admitted to being uncomfortable in the temple. I’m not sure what makes me all that different from him or his reasons more valid than mine.
Joni…thanks for sharing. This is very eye-opening, and pretty significant. In many many ways…there is not so much difference among people…often the rules and feelings are pretty similar…but it seems some people obey for their own reasons, and some people choose not to for their reasons…even when the reasons are fairly similar thinking.I guess I’m saying…I think we are all cafeteria mormons. Many of us just manifest it differently for different reasons.
And that is significant to me.
I know many couples in our ward that have one spouse a TR holder, and the other spouse chooses not to…and they seem to have a good marriage where they accept it is what it is…causes a bit of stress for the relationship…but they manage it along with other relationship issues like who cleans the toilets or mows the lawn. They just work on it.
I think if you are super super kind and loving…but don’t do everything and others call you apostate…well…it stings and then life goes on. You can find good people in church to stay close to that put relationships above differences in interpretations of apostasy.
I think the church has something for everyone. But sometimes they make it harder than it needs to be. And sometimes that equates to staying away because it is not worth it. It is part of our own individual journeys…what we value and sacrifice for, and what we choose to be cafeteria about and just cut out of our lives.
You can’t control what others think. But we can all work on what we value despite others. I think there are ways to stay if you want to or feel it is temporarily best for family relationships…with or without a TR.
I will also add…I think there are specific situations that will surface if a person tries to break from the mold and still try to stay. Even if in time, that person may be proven right. The system is setup to penalize some. I’m not sure why, except maybe they don’t know how else to be an organization without some rules, and with rules come accountability to those rules or else “why have any rules at all?”.
Tithing, WOW, Chastity…these seem to be hard lines in the sand that don’t allow for too much flexibility.
And they lead to:
1) Can’t see family and friends sealed in the temple;
2) Can’t baptize your son/daughter;
3) Can’t have certain leadership positions or callings;
…and a few things.
Those are important prices to pay to not just go along with the mold.
I honestly don’t know what to make of that. But I do recognize that is the way it is. But outside those things, I think people should accept each other despite church policy. And sometimes, that isn’t enough to be able to stay. It makes you feel you’re being told you are insignificant as a person, because you are unworthy to a set of man-made rules. The church teaches you will go to a lesser kingdom, and blessings like eternal families will not be yours, and that leads to pressure from families.
It seems to me to be a conundrum. Despite so many other great things about church that bring people together to serve each other. These “worthiness” discussions seem to hang over individuals, because that is how the church is setup.
Heber13 wrote:I will also add…I think there are specific situations that will surface if a person tries to break from the mold and still try to stay. Even if in time, that person may be proven right.
The system is setup to penalize some. I’m not sure why, except maybe they don’t know how else to be an organization without some rules, and with rules come accountability to those rules or else “why have any rules at all?”.
Tithing, WOW, Chastity…these seem to be hard lines in the sand that don’t allow for too much flexibility.
And they lead to:
1) Can’t see family and friends sealed in the temple;
2) Can’t baptize your son/daughter;
3) Can’t have certain leadership positions or callings;
…and a few things.
Those are important prices to pay to not just go along with the mold.
I honestly don’t know what to make of that. But I do recognize that is the way it is. But outside those things, I think people should accept each other despite church policy. And sometimes, that isn’t enough to be able to stay. It makes you feel you’re being told you are insignificant as a person, because you are unworthy to a set of man-made rules. The church teaches you will go to a lesser kingdom, and blessings like eternal families will not be yours, and that leads to pressure from families.
It seems to me to be a conundrum. Despite so many other great things about church that bring people together to serve each other. These “worthiness” discussions seem to hang over individuals, because that is how the church is setup.
Very good points.
Also, Church language feeds into perspective. “Worthiness” or if you’re “worthy” to go to the temple sets the psychological tone for how these acts are interpreted amongst members and even those that don’t conform. The temple interview covertly implies that these actions–paying tithing, WOW, Chastity, are the bare minimum for being good, essentially. So if you don’t pay tithing–if you don’t keep the WOW of wisdom–you’re “unworthy” of fuller access to God and his blessings. It can do horrible things for shaming members. We have discussions on here a lot about how shame is unhealthy for sexuality, but I think this principle applies to the gospel, period.
I don’t buy that the Church has something for everyone—it’s a nice goal, but it’s not true. I think we’re all mostly on the same page with that. Surely one wouldn’t advocate that the Church could have worked for every African American during the days of the Priesthood ban and overt racism?
For me, every membership I have with an organization should be a give-and-take. I get something I want/need from the organization, and I give back. Right now that give-and-take isn’t working for me and the LDS Church.
Worthy to enter the temple, and worthy in God’s eyes… …not the same thing.
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