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So I’ve begun taking endowment classes with my bishop (i live to far away for formal classes) Originally when i went to speak to my bishop about the temple i just wanted a recommend but somehow that turned into endowment classes, which i was fine with at the time but now i’m starting worry. To be perfectly honest i’m not sure i want to take out my endowments atm. It feels like a massive commitment and i take commitment and integrity very seriously. It’s little things that have me worried for one the word damnation keeps coming up in classes, now perhaps because of the cultural gap between my bishop and myself the word damnation means something different but i highly doubt it, as it’s written in D&C. When i think of the word damnation from a theological point of view i think of condemnation to eternal punishment as a consequence of sin. So when my bishop talks about someone going into the temple unprepared or without first confessing all of his sins as bringing damnation upon himself, and consequently someone who doesn’t live their endowment with exactness for example not wearing their temple garments 100% of the time, except for sports and bathing, as also bringing damnation upon themselves. That kind of catastrophizing makes me feel physically sick to my stomach. I can understand walking into the temple with sin as being a serious sin, but honestly who decides what serious sin is, that seems to change between bishops. If your bishop is a letter of the law kinda guy he will stick to the stock standard but what about those sins not expressly mentioned but have become socially classified as serious. One of my dear friends is a ex mo and he and i often have debates about this kind of thing, and up until now i really didn’t care but now that the bishop keeps using the word damnation i find myself thinking about what my friend has said. My friend uses the example of masturbation, depending on which bishop you get, it can be seen as completely natural and normal or demonic and leading to homosexuality. I’m beginning to see why so many Mormons seem to hate themselves, their riddled with the kinda guilt we only think the Catholics have. And don’t even get me started on the temple garments, i personally dislike someone dictating to me what i have to wear to bed and thus how comfortable i will be. I have extremely sensitive skin, i am not wearing anything except what i absolutely have to, to bed. Nor am i wearing anything under my clothes on a “sickeningly” hot boiling day here in OZ. Hell as fair as i’m concerned once the temp goes above 95f/35c i reserve the right to wear singlets, short, shorts and skirts. If i want to show my legs an inch above the knee on a summers day, i bloody well will!!!! and i refuse to let my body be sexualised, i don’t sexualize men, so don’t sexualize me. Shoulders and knees are not sexual to anyone except a pervert. and all of that brings me back to going into the temple unprepared, or in my case unprepared and unwilling to live the law of garments with exactness. To say that i would be damning myself makes me feel sick and disgusted, and certainly not comfortable making such a lifelong and strong commitment. Not to mention the new changes to church policy, which i understand the justification the church gave and would support it, except that by labeling homosexuality as apostasy you’ve condemned those who make the change from ‘SSA’ to ‘Homosexuality’ to a life of shunning and excommunication from their families and loved ones. The Church says they don’t teach shunning but the doctrine strictly says to shun apostates and the definition of apostasy seems all to arbitrary amoungst some members let alone the actual impact of the church itself labeling you an apostate.
It’s all just feeling a bit passive aggressive, controlling and manipulating at the moment and whole too much like my old religion which is making me feel sick to my stomach.
It sounds like you have more questions than just the endowment. Bottom line, if you don’t feel like you’re ready for the temple (or commitments or whatever), then don’t go until you do feel ready. dingobex wrote:That kind of catastrophizing makes me feel physically sick to my stomach.
I get around this to some extent by thinking about the time, place and people involved in developing the endowment. It explains for me the flavor of it all.
If you know up front that garments are going to be a big issue for you, I think DJ’s advice is good.
Do you have someone other than your bishop to talk with about this? It would be nice to have a real life friend – someone you consider down to earth and reasonable. We’re here, too. Good luck.
dingobex, based on your post, I think I can pretty much guarantee that you will hate and resent the temple ordinance, and will wish you had never gone. The temple is a spiritual step. You have to go because you want and because you seek to make commitments to God. If you don’t want to, but you go anyway, it will feel like the Church is forcing you to make commitments to IT and that the Church is watching you to make sure you follow your ‘covenants’. My advice: don’t go until you want to and feel ready for you, not to check someone else’s box. Stepping back a bit, I think the Church does a terrible job of temple prep. People go to the temple for the first time based more on calendar than spirituality. You reach a certain age or a certain amount of time post-baptism or you are going on a mission or getting sealed, then it’s automatic: you are going to the temple. Now, let’s have a temple prep course that doesn’t say anything about he temple, but emphasizes the importance of the temple and the seriousness of the covenants you make there.
Instead, IMO, the Church course should say the following:
– You have been baptized to join in the power of the Atonement and to become a member of the Family of Christ here on the earth. That was a step. Now, you have the opportunity to take another step; to be joined to God by a higher level of communion. In this, you will draw closer to God than before. When you are ready, the step is waiting for you. Take it when you feel it is appropriate for you.
– Always remember that your desire to get closer to God comes from you, not the Church, not your teachers, not the Bishop; no one but you.
– The endowment is highly symbolic. It is a ritual that we perform to represent the progression of our lives if we choose to follow God. Like many other religious rituals throughout the world, the endowment is constructed in a call-and-response way. We are invited by God and we respond positively.
– The elements of the symbolic ritual are familiar to those who have participated many times, but for first-time participants, of course, it is unfamiliar. Don’t worry about that. You don’t have to memorize the whole thing. Keep in mind at all times what is beings symbolized, rather than the symbols themselves.
-The endowment is presented as a type of play, in which the purpose of creation and our existence, the introduction of human failures, and the offer of the atonement is made to mankind. Throughout this play, you will be represented by Adam, who is first innocent, but spiritually weak. Needing more out of life, Adam seeks after God and as he does so, he gains in spiritual awareness and confidence and becomes closer to God and further from the world.
– The play has both Adam and Eve representing us, but don’t get wrapped around the axle, thinking Eve represents women separately from Adam representing men. We are all represented by the pair. It’s most appropriate to think of yourself as being represented by the fictional Adam, along with his companion, than to think that men are like Adam and women are like Eve.
– As the endowment unfurls, Adam makes commitments to God and is given signs that represent these covenants. There is nothing magical or significant about these particular signs. They are always guarded as private within the temple ordinance and in the early days of the Church, people viewed the actual signs as the knowledge that would allow a person to pass by angel sentinels into heaven. While we still guard them and don’t let them out because of the sacred nature of the temple, you should realize that these signs, in the endowment, represent the commitments that we have made and are not themselves the important element.
– As we (represented by Adam, or by Adam and Eve) make commitments to God, we receive more communion with God and more spiritual awareness and power. It is a cycle in which God offers closeness to us (Adam), we accept and feel closer to God, who then offers more closeness, lather, rinse, repeat.
– Finally, at the end of his life, Adam comes to a point of accounting, in which he shows the signs he was given. This represents the person living up to the commitments that they have made. The signs represent the commitments, and are not themselves significant. If a person has lived a life of approaching God, making commitments by stages and has lived true to the commitments they have made, then they are able to “report” favorably, and by so doing enter into the presence of God.
– Overall this represents our human journey to get closer and closer to Godliness until we finally are completely with Him.
– The temple garment is the private symbol we wear to remind ourselves and to declare to God that we have accepted a life of commitment to godliness and are continuing to follow Him – a symbol of devotion to a God-centered life.
I think perhaps I’ve not explained myself well enough, I was never, ever doing this to check off someone elses check box or because i felt forced to or unready. If any of those things were the case, i would not be asking these questions i would be doing as thousands have done before me and ‘just do it’ anyway. When i first spoke to my bishop about the temple i was surprised he thought i was ready for classes but decided to take them, knowing that i feel no obligation to follow through until such time as i am ready. After a few lessons and coupled with my own personal study that i have been doing long long long before i started these classes, i soon found myself not only feeling ready but excited. Due to the size of our branch and the busy-ness of my bishop/president our classes have been irregular and so i have had months to think about this and until this past fortnight was confident i was doing what i both wanted and felt was the right thing. It was only when the past two classes become ‘damnation’ heavy that i started to question my ready-ness and then subsequently felt uncomfortable with this level of catastropication. I know many many many members who do not wear there garments all of the time, for many varied personal reasons, i also know many many many members who struggle with masturbation and the thought that they are all damned to hell because there not living there endowments with exactness sickens me. It belittles everything worthy, virtuous thing about them and condemns them to a fate worse than a non believing rapist, pedophile or murder. How is this ok? and why in gods name is something so anti-loving being taught in gods name? As for the homophobia thing, my issue there is with shunning, i wholeheartedly disagree with it, i strongly believe it is a false biblical teaching and can not for the life of me understand why the church would endorse it. There is no scriptural account anywhere of god shunning any of his children, so why in the world is it a teaching of any religion.I understand the church’s position of wanting to protect children from feeling pressured to choose between the church and their parents, but labeling their parents apostates and the subsequent shunning that kids parents will receive causing equal to more damage.
I was in my late 20’s when i joined this church 6 years ago and i was shunned and excommunicated from my family because their church taught them i was apostate, i joined this church knowing that would be the case, but i would not wish that experience on anyone, let alone a child caught in the middle of it.
Damnation teachings are a problem in the Church as well as other churches. I agree with you that these teachings are goofy. They come from a desire to keep people FROM, where spirituality should be an invitation TO. A very easy example is the Sacrament. Paul in I Corinthians 11, says of the sacrament in the KJV: “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself”. So, we get this sense that the Sacrament is a two-edged sword. It’s an invitation with a warning. Personally, I dislike the warning part of any form of spirituality. It’s unnecessary. Spirituality is an invitation-based system. “Damnation” should be left to the realm of opportunity cost, rather than actual punishment. But, it’s easy to see how this comes about by human interpretation. In the real world, sometimes we are motivated by reward; sometimes by fear of punishment. While it’s natural for us to interpret godliness in this way, I don’t personally find any value in fear-of-punishment as a motivator for the spiritual. And, parenthetically, Paul’s words are misrepresented in the KJV (IMO). What he seems to have been saying, if you read the more modern (and less influenced by the
textus receptus) NRSV, seems to follow the sense that you wouldn’t eat just anything without thinking of what it does to your body, so also with the bread and cup of the Lord, think about what you are taking on so that it might be for your benefit. Judge yourself a little, to make sure you are consciously taking on the name of the Lord in the right way. If you need to be self-judged and mildly rebuked, so much the better than giving up and being judged along with the world. This is a self-discipline passage, that calls for making conscious decisions to follow the Lord. But it is widely interpreted with a negative connotation. IMO, there is no ‘damnation’ in the Gospel, only invitation.
I suppose that this is a difficulty of a temple prep. class where we actually talk about what happens in the temple. Who teaches it? What perspective of emphasis do they use? I like OON’s version but that might seem heretical to some of the old guard. Clearly this particular Bishop takes going to the temple without first repenting of everything or failing to live up to every promise made therein as a damnable offense. I currently see the endowment as symbolic. I believe that it represents imperfect man’s feeble and flawed attempts to point towards Christ and God. Yes there are elements of controlling and manipulating and I assume that those are there because of the weakness of men. I once read a quote that said essentially, “Love produces the best quality converts but fear produces the most quantity of converts.” This quote was in reference to converting entire populaces by the sword in the middle ages.
dingobex wrote:i also know many many many members who struggle with masturbation and the thought that they are all damned to hell because there not living there endowments with exactness sickens me.
On the other hand, I remember taking out my endowments for the first time. I had been using masturbation both as an outlet for my sexual feelings and attractions and also as a soothing mechanism for stressful and anxious situations. I had believed that wearing the garments would help me to stop – if not because of any spiritual help then at least because of the ratcheting up of the consequences of failure. When I eventually succumbed to temptation I felt terrible. I imagined that God had built for me an impenetrable white fortress and that I had let in the enemy through the back gate. I was a traitor. I felt that unless I was able to repent and overcome, that I would never find happiness or fulfillment. I would forever be “unworthy.”
Eventually I was able to see the endowment more symbolically but I remember a time when I saw the endowment not terribly dissimilar to your bishop. The endowment didn’t change me … and I thought this could only be explained because of my failure.
dingobex wrote:i take commitment and integrity very seriously
Based on some of the things you’ve shared, I would give you advice to wait on the temple. Temples aren’t going anywhere. So, no need to make it a hard decision. Simply tell your bishop that based on the study, you don’t feel ready. That is the safest route.When you go to the temple, they ask for covenants and commitments that day. They allow you to walk out of a session if you can’t make those covenants…but that would be as hard to do as a bride at the alter walking away with doubts. Don’t leave it up to that moment to decide. Be all in…or wait. There is no reason you can’t wait a bit more until you no longer feel sick to your stomach.
Also…you may want to start studying about symbolism and church teachings and God’s love.
Damnation may not be as horrific as primary kids are taught. It feels to me it is a fear tactic to use such language. God is a god of love, not of fear. There is meaning in the symbolism we are taught.
Wait for the temple until you have no reservations about going to make covenants. There is no sin in waiting.
Talk with someone who attends the temple but doesn’t take it literally. There are plenty of people, even top leaders, who have said it is all symbolic. If you want to talk in detail, feel free to PM me. There is very little we covenant not to disclose, so we can talk about almost everything that happens there. (For example, my kids knew exactly what they would experience – minus a few specific details – before they attended for the first time.)
For me, taking out endowments was very much like a nun or priest taking vows. A priest can take vows to one particular order .. A Jesuit for example. You are promising to put God first in your life in all things and in all ways.
You also promise to focus your service to God through the LDS church.
You wear a garment to remind yourself of those promises.
There are many ways to serve God. You need to decide if LDS church is the way in which you want to serve, and do you want to make the promises to God that are on the level of vows?
I wish it had been explained to me in advance in such terms. I was ready to get married, and ready to take vows of marriage, I wasn’t ready the take vows on the level of joining a religious order. I truly didn’t understand. The temple promises need to be discussed more.
dingobex wrote:So I’ve begun taking endowment classes with my bishop (i live to far away for formal classes) Originally when i went to speak to my bishop about the temple i just wanted a recommend but somehow that turned into endowment classes, which i was fine with at the time but now i’m starting worry. To be perfectly honest i’m not sure i want to take out my endowments atm. It feels like a massive commitment and i take commitment and integrity very seriously.
It’s little things that have me worried for one the word damnation keeps coming up in classes, now perhaps because of the cultural gap between my bishop and myself the word damnation means something different but i highly doubt it, as it’s written in D&C. When i think of the word damnation from a theological point of view i think of condemnation to eternal punishment as a consequence of sin. So when my bishop talks about someone going into the temple unprepared or without first confessing all of his sins as bringing damnation upon himself, and consequently someone who doesn’t live their endowment with exactness for example not wearing their temple garments 100% of the time, except for sports and bathing, as also bringing damnation upon themselves.
That kind of catastrophizing makes me feel physically sick to my stomach. I can understand walking into the temple with sin as being a serious sin, but honestly who decides what serious sin is, that seems to change between bishops. If your bishop is a letter of the law kinda guy he will stick to the stock standard but what about those sins not expressly mentioned but have become socially classified as serious.
One of my dear friends is a ex mo and he and i often have debates about this kind of thing, and up until now i really didn’t care but now that the bishop keeps using the word damnation i find myself thinking about what my friend has said. My friend uses the example of masturbation, depending on which bishop you get, it can be seen as completely natural and normal or demonic and leading to homosexuality.
I’m beginning to see why so many Mormons seem to hate themselves, their riddled with the kinda guilt we only think the Catholics have.
And don’t even get me started on the temple garments, i personally dislike someone dictating to me what i have to wear to bed and thus how comfortable i will be. I have extremely sensitive skin, i am not wearing anything except what i absolutely have to, to bed. Nor am i wearing anything under my clothes on a “sickeningly” hot boiling day here in OZ. Hell as fair as i’m concerned once the temp goes above 95f/35c i reserve the right to wear singlets, short, shorts and skirts. If i want to show my legs an inch above the knee on a summers day, i bloody well will!!!! and i refuse to let my body be sexualised, i don’t sexualize men, so don’t sexualize me.
Shoulders and knees are not sexual to anyone except a pervert. and all of that brings me back to going into the temple unprepared, or in my case unprepared and unwilling to live the law of garments with exactness. To say that i would be damning myself makes me feel sick and disgusted, and certainly not comfortable making such a lifelong and strong commitment.
Not to mention the new changes to church policy, which i understand the justification the church gave and would support it, except that by labeling homosexuality as apostasy you’ve condemned those who make the change from ‘SSA’ to ‘Homosexuality’ to a life of shunning and excommunication from their families and loved ones. The Church says they don’t teach shunning but the doctrine strictly says to shun apostates and the definition of apostasy seems all to arbitrary amoungst some members let alone the actual impact of the church itself labeling you an apostate.
It’s all just feeling a bit passive aggressive, controlling and manipulating at the moment and whole too much like my old religion which is making me feel sick to my stomach.
When I read all this, I don’t think you should do it — the consequences and threat of damnation bother you. You don’t want to wear garments, and the new church policy has you disillusioned with the church.
Are you single? The endowment also heightens penalties if you make a mistake. If you are an unendowed person, the consequences are less severe if you make a mistake. And of course, sexual activity is one of the biggest problems unmarried people face.
I’d wait and try to find a gentle way out of this situation. You can go on the “I don’t have any deeds to confess, and feel worthy based on what I’ve been taught, but the commitment scares me”. Leave it at that and don’t give any more information.
dingobex wrote:To be perfectly honest i’m not sure i want to take out my endowments atm. It feels like a massive commitment and i take commitment and integrity very seriously. It’s little things that have me worried for one the word damnation keeps coming up in classes, now perhaps because of the cultural gap between my bishop and myself the word damnation means something different but i highly doubt it, as it’s written in D&C. When i think of the word damnation from a theological point of view i think of condemnation to eternal punishment as a consequence of sin. So when my bishop talks about someone going into the temple unprepared or without first confessing all of his sins as bringing damnation upon himself, and consequently someone who doesn’t live their endowment with exactness for example not wearing their temple garments 100% of the time, except for sports and bathing, as also bringing damnation upon themselves.
In the past I’ve felt this way as well, that the temple really upped the ante when it came to righteous living. I reached the point where I developed scrupulosity, I never felt comfortable in my own skin. Never.
Here’s the thing though… if the temple really does work that way, upping the ante on potential punishments, then the temple would ultimately be a damning experience for everyone.
Everyonesins after going to the temple. Everyone. Big sins, small sins, some as big as your head, *and bigger*:crazy: ). I don’t believe the purpose of the temple was to damn people, I believe it was to bless people.I also compare it to becoming a parent. If you wait around until you are skilled enough to be a perfect parent before you have your first child you will never have children. Parental skills can be developed before having children but it’s difficult. I think everyone ends up becoming a parent before they are truly ready but over time they grow into the role. Even then no one ever becomes a perfect parent.
The endowment could work similarly. The endowment alone isn’t like a light switch where our nature changes in an instant. For the most part the same person that enters the temple is the same person that leaves. In the temple we receive a role that we spend a lifetime growing into. If we had to wait until we have already grown into the role before going to the temple we’ll never end up going. Even the people that receive their endowment never “arrive” in this lifetime.
And for the record I don’t view receiving the endowment or becoming a parent as essential. I just think this whole “damnation” business was never the intent of the endowment. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I agree with the other comments, that given your feelings if I were you I wouldn’t go, but it sounds like you’ve already made that decision. I’m not a big fan of the model where we push ordinances on people or how ordinances are tied to social promotion. I believe the scriptures lay out an “ask and ye shall receive” model, where someone receives something when they start to show interest (where interest is what qualifies someone as being ready). Often in church I see a “Here, take it. Take it!” model, where someone receives something at a predetermined age whether they ask for it or not. For the most part the endowment is a little better in that regard but it can become another ordinance on autopilot when getting married, going on a mission, or as a reactivation carrot.
Fwiw on the garments you covenant to wear them the rest of your days and not 100% of the time minus bathing and sports. So if you don’t feel comfortable wearing them in bed. … don’t. It’s us humans who like rules and laws that say 100% of the time. That’s pharisee thinking and it drives me nuts. On the whole damnation thing we’re not prefect we can’t be perfect that’s what the atonement is for, seems like your bishop has forgotten that. I’d agree with everyone else, tell him you’ve thought and prayed about it and you don’t feel like it’s time. You may get some pressure to go but stick with your no. Heber13 wrote:dingobex wrote:i take commitment and integrity very seriously
Based on some of the things you’ve shared, I would give you advice to wait on the temple. Temples aren’t going anywhere. So, no need to make it a hard decision. Simply tell your bishop that based on the study, you don’t feel ready. That is the safest route.When you go to the temple, they ask for covenants and commitments that day. They allow you to walk out of a session if you can’t make those covenants…but that would be as hard to do as a bride at the alter walking away with doubts. Don’t leave it up to that moment to decide. Be all in…or wait. There is no reason you can’t wait a bit more until you no longer feel sick to your stomach.
Also…you may want to start studying about symbolism and church teachings and God’s love.
Damnation may not be as horrific as primary kids are taught. It feels to me it is a fear tactic to use such language. God is a god of love, not of fear. There is meaning in the symbolism we are taught.
Wait for the temple until you have no reservations about going to make covenants. There is no sin in waiting.
Thank you, this makes me feel somewhat more at peace.[emoji4]
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Old-Timer wrote:Talk with someone who attends the temple but doesn’t take it literally. There are plenty of people, even top leaders, who have said it is all symbolic.
If you want to talk in detail, feel free to PM me. There is very little we covenant not to disclose, so we can talk about almost everything that happens there. (For example, my kids knew exactly what they would experience – minus a few specific details – before they attended for the first time.)
Thanks Ray,I think I will message you. I have you on Facebook and I always enjoy your measured and insightful posts and blogs. I’ve even shared a couple :-p
Bec
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