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Let’s assume for a moment that President Nelson is not exaggerating, and the new handbook policy came directly via revelation from God. I find that that brings up some really interesting questions about revelation and the nature of God. God gave this revelation with the intent that 99% of Church members wouldn’t know about it, right? That is why He revealed via an update to Church Handbook of Instructions, Volume 1, rather than having the prophet declare it over the pulpit, as in 1978 (and 1995). Did He know that someone would then anonymously leak the relevant passages from a private handbook to the public? I mean God HAD to have known, He can’t be outsmarted by a lowly bishop or EQP. But if God wanted this revelation to remain confidential, why did God not tell the Q12 the name of the person or persons who would leak the handbook? They could have then ben pre-emptively removed from leadership callings which gave them access to CHI-1, thus preventing the leak. (Seems a little Minority Report to me, but this is God, not Tom Cruise.)
So, God
couldhave prevented the leak from occurring, but He chose not to. So I have to conclude that God wantedmembers like me, with no official access to CHI-1, to learn about this revelation via an anonymous leak which was in violation of the Handbook’s own rules. But because I am nosy, whenever God does X, I have to wonder why he did notdo Y or Z. So in this case the question is, why dod God preferto have this revelation become known to His saints via a private handbook and an anonymous , rule-breaking leak… ratherthan having the Prophet declare this revelation over the pulpit in the Conference Center? Why is the way He did it preferable to all of the other ways He could have done it? After all, when God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, Moses was then expected to go down from the mountain and tell everybody about it. Is this one of those things that we will never be able to understand? I thought that the Mormon God was supposed to be a lot
lessincomprehensible and unknowable than the God of the Nicene Creed. (The YW in our ward had an entire lesson on this two Sundays ago – basically why our Godhead is better than the Catholics’ Trinity.) …Of course, there’s also the possibility that President Nelson is exaggerating or overstating the means by which this policy came into being. But if that’s the case, why wouldn’t God stop Nelson (who is
aprophet, if not THEProphet) from putting words into His mouth? Especially if being mistaken about this is going to lead LGBT people and their family members (whom God loves just as much as straight people) to believe that He does not love or want them? I’ve got to admit, I just don’t understand God.
I don’t understand God, either. The one thing I have concluded is that if God does interact with people, he will never, under any circumstances, interfere with the free will (agency) of any individual. That’s why the Holocaust occurred, why child abuse occurs, why there are murders and suicides, etc. FWIW, my actual belief is that God doesn’t interfere because he doesn’t interfere/interact at all. I also don’t believe God is as all knowing and all powerful as LDS theology teaches – so I’m not sure if he did give the revelation that he knew it would be leaked.
Remember this video/talk from Elder Holland? Sometimes an answer to a prayer (revelation) will send us down the “wrong” road for a purpose. Joni wrote:But if God wanted this revelation to remain confidential, why did God not tell the Q12 the name of the person or persons who would leak the handbook? They could have then ben pre-emptively removed from leadership callings which gave them access to CHI-1, thus preventing the leak. (Seems a little Minority Report to me, but this is God, not Tom Cruise.)
If it worked like this there would be no one left to staff the callings.
In this day and age handbook 1 can’t be confidential. Someone
isgoing to share. That much is a given. Some time ago someone shared every handbook going back to 1899. I find the evolution interesting (the handbook went from about a dozen or so pages in 1899 to nearly 200 today… and they use a much smaller font in the recent ones
Joni wrote:So, God could have prevented the leak from occurring, but He chose not to. So I have to conclude that God wanted members like me, with no official access to CHI-1, to learn about this revelation via an anonymous leak which was in violation of the Handbook’s own rules. But because I am nosy, whenever God does X, I have to wonder why he did not do Y or Z. So in this case the question is, why dod God prefer to have this revelation become known to His saints via a private handbook and an anonymous , rule-breaking leak… rather than having the Prophet declare this revelation over the pulpit in the Conference Center? Why is the way He did it preferable to all of the other ways He could have done it? After all, when God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, Moses was then expected to go down from the mountain and tell everybody about it.
Whose god are we talking about? The Q15’s god that wants to keep a lid on things or the leaker’s god that wants to show everybody the books from whence we are judged. Maybe the brethren feel like revelations are on a need to know basis… and you don’t need to know. The leaker felt otherwise. It’s impossible to get into the mind of god, especially if you listen to everybody.
:angel: I don’t know and don’t care, honestly. I don’t have to believe in a God who knows every tiny detail, since I don’t like hardcore Calvinistic predestination and what it says about God.
DarkJedi wrote:I don’t understand God, either. The one thing I have concluded is that if God does interact with people, he will never, under any circumstances, interfere with the free will (agency) of any individual. That’s why the Holocaust occurred, why child abuse occurs, why there are murders and suicides, etc.
FWIW, my actual belief is that God doesn’t interfere because he doesn’t interfere/interact at all. I also don’t believe God is as all knowing and all powerful as LDS theology teaches – so I’m not sure if he did give the revelation that he knew it would be leaked.
I am also reaching a frame of mind that strongly parallels DJ. A loving God that is very hands off because we need to learn. It does not seem like the best configuration as it allows SO MUCH suffering of innocent people. But that is where I am at. The only alternative that jives with reality for me is to move to a position that their is no God. About a month ago I was exploring that feeling just a bit, but it was soooo depressing.LookingHard wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I don’t understand God, either. The one thing I have concluded is that if God does interact with people, he will never, under any circumstances, interfere with the free will (agency) of any individual. That’s why the Holocaust occurred, why child abuse occurs, why there are murders and suicides, etc.
FWIW, my actual belief is that God doesn’t interfere because he doesn’t interfere/interact at all. I also don’t believe God is as all knowing and all powerful as LDS theology teaches – so I’m not sure if he did give the revelation that he knew it would be leaked.
I am also reaching a frame of mind that strongly parallels DJ. A loving God that is very hands off because we need to learn. It does not seem like the best configuration as it allows SO MUCH suffering of innocent people. But that is where I am at.The only alternative that jives with reality for me is to move to a position that their is no God.About a month ago I was exploring that feeling just a bit, but it was soooo depressing. Yes, to the highlighted portion. That very idea is why I believe what I believe about God – the alternative is that there is no God, but the dilemma is I believe there is.
DarkJedi wrote:LookingHard wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I don’t understand God, either. The one thing I have concluded is that if God does interact with people, he will never, under any circumstances, interfere with the free will (agency) of any individual. That’s why the Holocaust occurred, why child abuse occurs, why there are murders and suicides, etc.
FWIW, my actual belief is that God doesn’t interfere because he doesn’t interfere/interact at all. I also don’t believe God is as all knowing and all powerful as LDS theology teaches – so I’m not sure if he did give the revelation that he knew it would be leaked.
I am also reaching a frame of mind that strongly parallels DJ. A loving God that is very hands off because we need to learn. It does not seem like the best configuration as it allows SO MUCH suffering of innocent people. But that is where I am at.The only alternative that jives with reality for me is to move to a position that their is no God.About a month ago I was exploring that feeling just a bit, but it was soooo depressing. Yes, to the highlighted portion. That very idea is why I believe what I believe about God – the alternative is that there is no God, but the dilemma is I believe there is.
I have to agree with DJ and LH on this one. Both ways of looking at this (1. God exists, but doesn’t interfere in our lives or 2. God doesn’t exist) are pretty depressing to me right now.
Orson, that video/talk from Elder Holland was the second thing I thought of when I first heard The Policy. (The first thing I thought is, there is NO WAY my children’s generation is going to stand for this.) It’s sort of comforting and disquieting at the same time, isn’t it? Definitely makes me less likely to want to bother God over silly things like missing car keys. And, the Handbook Revelation gets even more confusing the more layers you peel off. Another way to look at it is this: Does God know that by revealing doctrine in an unusual and somewhat roundabout way (leaked handbook update) instead of the usual method (prophetic declaration), that will make people less likely to believe that it is doctrine? A lot of people, myself included, have looked at it and said “if this was revelation, we would have heard about it from President Monson’s mouth, not an anonymously leaked handbook.” But…
of courseGod is aware that using such a convoluted way to reveal doctrine will obscure the fact that it isdoctrine. Because He is God, after all. So why do it this way, then? Is He just doing it this way to test us… but why? The more that I think about it, the more that I find God incomprehensible. And to be brutally honest, my relationship with Him has been on a shaky foundation for years. Having to jump through hoops, so to speak, to discover His will isn’t going to make that relationship better. It feels like God is playing mind games with me. But I can’t imagine why God would need the satisfaction of outwitting someone that he
knowsis a tiny helpless baby in intellect, when compared with Him. I don’t make my 7 year old jump through hoops to figure out when I need her to set the table for dinner, I just tell her. I believe God did know the 116 page manuscript would be leaked, which is why he created the small plates in advance. Oh wait…wrong story.
:angel: …but same idea…God knows…and the rough stone that was cut out of the mountain rolls forward. Mistakes, imperfections, and miscommunications have always been part of the religion. Why does God keep using mortals to do his work?
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