How would you respond?

The real reasons are:

a) I don’t think the church needs it.

b) I haven’t seen basic reciprocity in terms of kindness, charity, and even support (non-financial) on hardcore issues consistent with our religion such as serving a mission, going through an LDS Social Services adoption. In short, I’ve felt very let down on a number of issues where there the church should have been there for me at at least a minimal level…you will have to trust me these are valid concerns so I don’t have to rehash it all (been there, done that — one of the benefits of this site). They are extraordinary and extreme.

c) I don’t feel part of the community, and when I serve at really high levels of effort and commitment, that service appears to be taken very lightly when I have needed a release for health reasons.

d) I don’t feel philanthropic giving to the church so I can get a temple recommend — the carrot/stick approach removes the passion…some have called tithing membership dues, which sort of sums it up for me.

I can’t say any of these things…though.

If the Bishop indicates it’s a commandment, I suppose my answer could be that to some extent, we are all on different levels and at different levels of compliance with the large number of commandments we have to abide by, and that no one lives all commandments perfectly…paying tithing is something I would like to aspire to at some point, but I don’t feel passionate about it right now.

Whoops, still trying to figure out how to quote people on here. What I wanted to say was that I thought your rebuttal for the commandment approach sounded good. I think your last sentence ‘paying tithing is something I would like to aspire to at some point, but I don’t feel passionate about it right now’ would make a good answer for why you aren’t ready to pay tithing yet. You may not ever want to pay tithing, but I think the bishop would handle it best if you made it sound like something you were working towards doing someday. You don’t even have to say that you’re paying other organizations, because then he’ll question your motives for supporting them instead of the church and i’m assuming you’d like to avoid that. You may have to come up with a way to prepare for the ‘you should keep the commandment until you have a testimony of it’ reply as well

I I agree with you that God doesn’t need the money, but the church does need a certain amount of income to maintain its current infrastructure and continue to build meeting houses and temples, produce materials, fund travel, etc. If we all stopped paying the church would undoubtedly collapse, although it would not be immediate.

Agreed, but at this time, I don’t think they need it from me. They seem to have more than enough to fund the things they want to do. And I don’t see the huge surplus I believe they have, coming back to the local population services we need….nor is the experience of being a Mormon getting much better. There have been some improvements through some of the essays and Uchdorfts talks, but frankly, the experience of being a Mormon simply does not seem worth the amount I would have to pay in tithing to be in full standing — at least, not to me, at this time.

I know the way I am looking at this is different than the way we are taught to look at it, but I suppose my life’s experiences have let me to these conclusions.

I want to add, I am much happier giving my money to an organization I started recently

FWIW, I sometimes go to a local Protestant church and up front on a hymn board they have the amount of money they need to collect to meet weekly expenses and the amount they actually collected the week prior. Every time I have been there they have met or exceeded the needed amount. This is the kind of church where everything is locally funded, there is no central administration like there is in our church and some others. I have never heard them ask for a tithe or any suggested amount, but I also don’t meet with the pastor and I am aware that some people do tithe to their understanding of what a tithe is.

This is great. I think it’s a wonderful thing to do.

I’ll give some very orthodox answers, or at least what I imagine someone that is very orthodox would say.

In my current state of mind, I would indicate that I am still giving, only to a different organization. In this sense, I am being charitable and spiritual, only in giving to a different organization. How might a typical traditional Mormon (Bishop) respond to this statement? How might you respond to his own response?

Charitable contributions to other organizations don’t “count.” After a cursory search I’m not seeing any official policy that says this but I think most bishops wouldn’t consider a donation to some other organization to count towards one’s tithing. I don’t think most bishops would even consider donations to the church in other categories on the tithing and other offerings slip like fast offerings, humanitarian aid, etc. to count towards one’s tithing… and to let that sink in a little more we’re talking donations to the church not counting.

Local leaders, your results may vary.

Agreed, but at this time, I don’t think they need it from me. They seem to have more than enough to fund the things they want to do. And I don’t see the huge surplus I believe they have, coming back to the local population services we need….nor is the experience of being a Mormon getting much better. There have been some improvements through some of the essays and Uchdorfts talks, but frankly, the experience of being a Mormon simply does not seem worth the amount I would have to pay in tithing to be in full standing — at least, not to me, at this time.

I’m going to be blunt because I’m currently struggling to organize my thoughts, please don’t take this the wrong way.

I don’t think tithing is about getting something back. We hear stories of people that sacrifice greatly to pay tithing and then they come into some unexpected money which they attribute to divine intervention. Those sorts of stories often don’t work for us because the majority of people fall into the “but if not” category. We quickly learn that paying tithing isn’t some safeguard against struggling financially, it’s just a charitable gift.

Is it truly selflessly giving if the giving creates a sense of entitlement? In this case expecting more coming back to the local population or expecting the experience to be better specifically because of the tithing we pay. Would this not fall into the category of only obeying out of expectations of being blessed?

I do agree with you, the church doesn’t appear to need the money, at least it appears that way based on some of the more visible ways the church decides to spend the resources they have at their disposal. I don’t want the thread to turn in this direction but… sorry, the opportunity cost of that mall and more recently the Provo City Center Temple (I imagine that engineering feat cost a fortune, but at least a brick façade was saved 🙄 ). I can fully understand how some people have issues with tithing because the people deciding how church funds are spent appear to be poor stewards.

Pulling the orthodox hat all the way down to my ears… how might paying tithing to the LDS church benefit you spiritually?

resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

It may be cathartic to pay tithing (in some amount) to the church. In this case being able to pay tithing could be a huge step in letting go of some of the wrongs perpetuated on us by church members. Charitable giving to other organizations will continue to bless us in the charitable giving department but there are multiple lessons to be learned from tithing. The scripture it talks of turning our cheeks to the people that have wronged us. We might be missing out on a growth opportunity if we learn to turn our cheek but we learn turn it to someone other than the person that has offended us.

For the record, that’s a verse I’ve struggled with over the years. It’s not a healthy verse to use in situations where it facilitates continued abuse. Just know that I’m aware of that angle and how it is relevant to your situation.

You know the answer to the question.

If you aren’t paying tithing, I think the best answer simply is that you have had experiences in your life that make tithing a difficult principle to embrace fully – that you want to support the Church but that you still are working through tithing.

You still will get lectured by some Bishops and not by others. That, as with so many things, is leadership roulette.

I know the standard Mormon answers — my own answer — I think the one I came out with earlier might work, although I wasn’t entirely sure what I would say when the time comes (I’m sure it will come soon — our building looks fit for occupancy — it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s hung up waiting for a building inspector now).

No one has said there could be statements about fire insurance, or the example to my children from the Bishop. As well as not having the blessings of the temple.

I am not sure how I might answer those questions — perhaps Ray’s answer above could be a blanket answer to them all.

What I like is that in spite of your own RC, Roy, you still have been able to baptize your children. That means your strategy with this particular Bishop worked.

Mine is a bit trickier, as I do want to be in the temple with my daughter some day. I’m thinking it may not be too good to go into much detail about my own reasons as as that will only dig me a hole. If they knew how I REALLY feel….much of what I feel is unjustifiable to the average TBM leader.

The other thing I noticed as a TBM leader years ago is that people’s concerns get reduced to a simple, shallow statement in meetings. “SD got offended over his release years ago and doesn’t want a calling”. There is so much more to my own situation — the accretion of layers occurred over time with repeated, extreme situations. There is no way it can be simplified into a sentence.

So, I think it’s better to be vague and keep everyone guessing, and preventing them from simplifying your story to the point of inaccuracy…

I kind of blew it a while ago though — one of my friends helped me with something and he’s now in the Bishopric. So he knows about a few things, mostly the bullying of my daughter that led us to another Ward. Totally reasonable, in my view. Also knows about how I felt like an outsider in the Ward due to a few things that happened…

I love this verse as it relates to my relationship with the church. I don’t need it anymore to be happy. Not at all — the new program I am on — finding joy in my existence (consistent with JS’s statement about the object and design of our existence) has liberated me from feeling that the church experience is a source of joy. I honestly DO NOT NEED IT to be happy.

But I want it in my life — as a joyful “servant” and not a master. This is does mean that is is there to serve me in a selfish way, but it is there as a source of joy for service that brings myself and others happiness, and place to nurture for the joy of my family — and much of this means some form of selfless giving. Should it be a source of misery, then it’s time to change my relationship with it (as I have done in recent years).

A situation comes to mind — recently — I had about for people — staunch members of the church but also in my circle of friends say:

“We want you back”. Three of them have done it now. All the same phrases “We want you back”. One of them called me and told me they needed an Executive Secretary and went on about the great need in the ward for it. “We want you back”. I wonder if there was an apostle, GA, or local leader that encouraged them to use that phrase.

This approach to creating joy in my life, while benefiting the church, doesn’t work….a much better approach would be to find out the current areas of my life where I would like to increase joy, and then find overlapping interests of the church. Here lies the secret of “getting me back”. I have a need for:

1. Getting my son off the computer and out socializing and learning to be a man.

2. Sharing my talents in project management, music, and on my own terms, the wealth I have accumulated. In a way that brings my philanthropic joy.

3. The sense of belonging to the community again, in spite of the trail of extreme and negative experiences I have had.

4. The need to be inspired with ways of improving my spirituality through non-doctrinal, dogmatic means…

5. I am constantly developing non-member musicians to join my little workforce of people I can call for gigs.

6. Increasing the cleanliness and organization of my surroundings.

With that backdrop, can you brainstorm the ways I might increase the joy in these areas, while benefiting the church at the same time?

Already I know a few ways:

1. Be a supportive parent, putting on a monthly activity with the young men, involving my son. As a former YM president, Stake YM President many times over, I have a lot to offer.

2. Helping with a social activity that is fun, and relieves the members of the drudgery of some of the repetitive service of our organization.

3. Hiring people who have economic needs in the church to do work around my house at a nice rate of pay.

4. Paying musicians I am grooming to perform at a church function.

5. Speaking on non-doctrinal topics in church about work, relationships, cleanliness, the power of organization to boost spirituality, the blessings of service in the community, the spiritual strength that comes from self-study…and so on.

All these talents lay fallow — no one knows how to reach me , because they haven’t asked….

And I’m not going to outright volunteer, but with a push, I would gladly do all these things…