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If you think of the biggest issue you disagree with the church leadership on (you can share it here or not for this discussion, either way), and you bishop and SP both talked to you and told you that you are allowed to have your beliefs, but they asked you to please not share in church class or over the pulpit, or not publish anything including on Internet boards on the subject if it disagrees with the church’s published policy/position. They would be monitoring you on that. Would you feel a need to speak your mind and not be told to stifle it?
How far would you go to support the church leaders, and how far would you go to support your own conscience?
In this hypothetical situation, how exactly are they ‘monitoring’ my internet use? Because I think if they would only find out if I published my name to something online, I would just be on anonymous boards like this so they wouldn’t find out and that’d be enough for me. I don’t feel the need to speak out against the church right now, at least. Even though i know some people are believing the church in ignorance, i don’t feel like it’s my right to ruin their ignorant bliss and there’s already enough things out there for them to find. They will figure things out one day on their own. But if the church were able to actually monitor all of my internet use, I don’t think I would be able to keep quiet online because I NEED to discuss things with other people. I don’t tend to want to speak out in Sunday school in most instances, but I think that’s mainly because I’m an introvert.
I’d have more of an issue with this part than I would with whatever my issue was: Heber13 wrote:They would be monitoring you on that.
I don’t feel like I need someone over my shoulder in that manner. It doesn’t contribute towards my growth and it would be a huge waste of time for the person that gets stuck with that job.
In this hypothetical situation, you don’t know for sure what they do or do not know or how they are getting it…but in interviews they specifically state that they were told your username on some sites and they believe you are on other sites they may not know about, and have a couple printed examples of your posts that are not terribly bad, but do support why they are talking to you about it. They ask you if these posts are yours (which the ones they have really are). Their concern is that they know it has affected the testimonies of some people in their congregations who have come to them to talk about it because of your posts, and the things you may say in class. So…perhaps it seems unlikely they know stuff about your anonymity. But…say perhaps they did…and they were monitoring because of concerns that prompted them to, and they ask you to stop, how do you respond? What would you do? Regardless of whether you agree with them doing it or not, they are for reasons all their own. Now they’ve asked you to stop publishing things about [insert topic here].
To me it comes down to if I feel people are getting hurt. For example, if my often repeated statement of, “I don’t feel God has told me the policy change dealing with the children of Gays is his doing.” I would lean towards saying I won’t be making a big stink about it in church unless someone starts really making a big show of just how much “of God” this is and I worry that a gay person – or relative of a gay person – is in the audience and I want to make sure that they know not everyone is in agreement. There may be some things I would be OK being quiet on, but generally I am a bit more of the mindset, “you can’t tell me not to do that.”
But knowing myself, I would like the challenge of “see if you can catch me”.
😈 I will admit that I mix things up on this blog a bit just in case someone that knows me well reads this. They will not be able to connect every dot. I fudge on how many kids I have and what gender they are. I fudge on what calling I am in now (but not what callings I have held). When I have business trips (which I do travel a lot – partially why I have time to post here and there while sitting in an airport, waiting for a taxi, etc.)
When I post in this thread I’ll try to remember that: Mike Tyson wrote:Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
First off, I already self police and that’s without ever having been asked to do so. In my case I might have to ponder more about what I would do if asked to
start? Presumably by a peer that feels alone in their struggles and is looking for someone to have their back. Back to the question, what would I do? Weigh the pros and cons. At this current snapshot in time I get more out of my online interactions with people I’ve never met (and am unlikely to ever meet
Do I want to make other people happy or do I want to be happy myself? That’s another angle to weighing the pros and the cons and it’s further complicated because a part of what brings me happiness is making other people happy.
:crazy: Stop: I get to stay active, attend meetings that I find boring anyway, feel alone in a crowd. The status quo. How much am I willing to fight to maintain all that? In fact I wonder what the reaction would be if I asked this of the person asking me to stop. A nice “I need to feel loved and I’m not getting that here so I have to go with curtain number two.”
Ignore: If I felt alone before that feeling would likely intensify, knowing there’s a group of people out there that cast me aside. I get to maintain my online community but then there’s never any refreshments.
how else will I be strengthened and nourished?Heber13 wrote:Their concern is that they know it has affected the testimonies of some people in their congregations who have come to them to talk about it because of your posts, and the things you may say in class.
I would be concerned that I affected someone’s testimony, I
tryto adopt the same rules at some national parks, leave no trace, do no harm, etc. but if someone seeks my posts out then who is doing the affecting? I think I remember a conversation on StayLDS in the past where someone said this is probably why there aren’t many “official” support groups to help people that have experienced a faith crisis. A leader sees people attend the event, come away with questions, and makes the assumption that it’s the event that must be bad. I’d probably ignore them. I don’t StayLDS for anyone other than myself. Maybe it would be similar to those situations where someone claims that Mormons aren’t Christian. Nibbler, you aren’t LDS. Cool story bro.
Kobayashi Maru the problem. Nibbler goes silent, then after both sides are done partying I create a user account called Heber12.
The fact for me is: we don’t know what we’re going to do until it happens. Anytime I choose to speak my mind, in church or outside, I try to ask the question, will my remarks hurt anyone?
Especially, my family members or new church members or investigators.
I never hesitate to speak my mind when the situation is one on one & I know my audience.
Even in that situation, I choose my words very carefully.
For me I would back down. I might go so far as to change my icon/name if I still wanted to converse online. It’s easy to create a new email account and pick a new moniker. I know that for me it would be the best choice, especially if I still wanted to get a message out or to engage in conversations. I know from personal experience that more can be lost than gained when a person pushes too hard against an established system.
My experiences were on a ward level, surrounded by people who had trusted me for years, so they let me comment. But pretty soon it became apparent to them and to me that I was going a bit farther off than was wise. I had a friend and RS President call me and apologize for always speaking after me, but some of the things I said were causing confusion. This was early on in my transition, no essay’s existed, no OW had happened, but I had mentioned sisters giving healing blessings. To me it was a historical insight, to others it was conflict.
A few years later I opened my mouth again during one of those, “As Man Is – God Once Was Lessons”. My comment (basically referencing Pres. Hinckley on Larry King Live) caused the teacher, another friend or happy church colleague to fight back. To shout, become emotional, and to cause a public rift between us. It would take months and someone else’s life trauma to reconnect us.
Those losses weren’t worth the cost. Do I still stand by my information? Yes. I wasn’t intending to be anti-anything. I was wrestling with new information, some of it I assumed others must be too. But in those moments I didn’t serve anyone or anything well. Not people, not history, not spirituality. It’s not cowardly to take a step back, reassess, then proceed.
nibbler wrote:Kobayashi Maru the problem.
Nibbler goes silent, then after both sides are done partying I create a user account called Heber12.
:thumbup: mom3 wrote:It’s not cowardly to take a step back, reassess, then proceed.
i agree
Minyan Man wrote:The fact for me is: we don’t what we’re going to do until it happens.
Anytime I choose to speak my mind, in church or outside, I try to ask the question, will my remarks hurt anyone?
Especially, my family members or new church members or investigators.
I never hesitate to speak my mind when the situation is one on one & I know my audience.
Even in that situation, I choose my words very carefully.
Exactly my thoughts. I heavily self moderate as it is with my main goal being “do no harm.”
I’m assuming in this hypothetical that changing names, etc., doesn’t “work,” that the idea is they know what you’re doing and will call you on it. What comes to my mind is how I’d feel if my spouse told me he was going to monitor me. I’d know that whether I stay married or not, the marriage bond – the love and respect – is essentially dissolved.
In real life I would weigh a lot of factors, but it does help to not be afraid of church discipline, only concerned about my family.
Heber13 wrote:If you think of the biggest issue you disagree with the church leadership on (you can share it here or not for this discussion, either way), and you bishop and SP both talked to you and told you that you are allowed to have your beliefs, but they asked you to please not share in church class or over the pulpit, or not publish anything including on Internet boards on the subject if it disagrees with the church’s published policy/position.They would be monitoring you on that…Would you feel a need to speak your mind and not be told to stifle it?…How far would you go to support the church leaders, and how far would you go to support your own conscience? That’s why I like being anonymous because I can say what I want to without worrying about what my bishop, stake president, neighbors, family, etc. would think if they see what I am saying about the Church and its leaders, porn, drinking, etc. If I had to pick one issue where I am never going to agree with the Church’s official teachings I guess it is simply that I don’t believe that the Q15 are prophets, seers, and revelators; as far as I’m concerned they are just ordinary men and therefore there is no compelling reason why I should feel obligated to believe and do what they say.
And it sounds like this general question came up in some recent Church discipline “courts” at least whether people accept Thomas S. Monson as “the Prophet” as if simply not believing this claim is apostasy. If I was threatened with excommunication over this I would probably resign. However, I certainly don’t need to go around telling TBMs that I don’t believe in the Church and why or even disparaging the Church on Facebook and I already don’t do that anyway mostly because I think they don’t want to hear it and won’t really understand but will instead probably judge me unfairly. I do think it is lame that I should have to live in fear this way almost as if I am in North Korea simply because of the church, family, and state I was born into but I guess all I can do is try to get by the best I can under the circumstances.
It would depend on the purpose of the request. No, I wouldn’t stop doing and saying what I openly am doing and saying – again, unless they gave me a compelling reason (like a calling that would require anonymity). Lacking that, I would leave it in their hands to do whatever they chose to do. I am not an apostate, and I am comfortable with who I am.
I would probably stop posting and retreat to being a lurker. I might go quietly inactive at some point but having discipline hanging over my head would force my hand in ways that I am not comfortable with.
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