Letting go of the all or nothing approach

On the site people often suggest that we start to focus on what we do believe.

The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new.

There’s certainly a phase where we’re dissecting the old, deconstructing our old faith. I believe that’s an important step but I also believe that there’s a risk of settling into the role of being a deconstruction worker. I think that at some point it’s healthy to start constructing. Becoming the architect/overseer/construction worker of a new faith of your own design really helps to let go of the all or nothing approach. You get to take what you want, leave what you want, and no decision has to be final.

Another thing that might be helpful. Often when we talk about Fowler’s stages of faith we approach it as being all or nothing. E.g. I am stage 3. What does that mean? Does that mean that a person is in stage 3 all the time and in every walk of life? I don’t think so. Even Fowler’s stages of faith aren’t all or nothing.

As pointed out in the other tread the borders between stages are fuzzy and we pass through them all the time. I also think people can simultaneously be at different stages in different areas of their life. E.g. I may currently be oscillating between stage 4 and 5 with respect to my feelings about religion but I may be firmly entrenched in stage 3 when I’m watching my favorite football team play their rivals (the refs are cheating). It might help to find other areas in your life where you have moved past stage 3 and try to apply those lessons to your faith transition.

I realize this is a contradiction to the previous paragraph but I feel like we can’t will ourselves from stage to stage, or at the very least we can’t “run faster than we have strength.” Sometimes it takes time. I’ve said this a few times, sorry for the repetition, but if going through a faith crisis really is a spiritual rebirth we should expect things to be difficult for a season. I compare it to our physical birth. At first we’re so lost we don’t know how to express ourselves, we don’t even fully understand our feelings. We have to learn to roll over unassisted, learn to crawl, learn to walk. We wait for our baby teeth to come in, for them to fall out and be replaced by adult teeth. Etc., etc. Just like with physical birth everyone comes out of a faith crisis at a different rate. I remember being really worried as a new parent because my kid was very late learning to speak. Of course eventually we had a problem of getting them to be quiet. (and they eventually come full circle where you can’t get them to say anything). My kid was also very early with other things. At any given snapshot in time “growing up” isn’t an all or nothing affair.

That’s kind of how I view a faith crisis. Any given snapshot in time I’m not necessarily all or nothing when it comes to being fully transitioned. I can be angry about some issues and at peace with others. I’ve cut two teeth but I still haven’t learned how to talk.

Another thing that might help, and is right up the alley of someone in the anger phase. When a leader presents an all or nothing idea just disagree with it. Disagreeing with leaders should come natural in that stage. GBH says either the church is true or it is a fraud, just disagree. Learn to recognize the all or nothings and disagree. You don’t have to have the answer right now as to why something isn’t all or nothing, just disagree and figure it out later.

I like the cafeteria analogy. In a cafeteria you take the food you want to eat and you don’t take the food you don’t want to eat. We don’t tend to spend a lot of time in line fixating on why we didn’t pick the fried okra, we take our Salisbury stake, sit down, and get to eating. For the sake of argument let’s say our dad came with us and he’s adamant that we eat the fried okra. If we are still a kid we might have to grin and bear it. If we are an adult we might say something like, “Dad, I’m an adult, I’m paying for my own food now, deal with it. “

To extend the analogy, we probably wouldn’t consider boycotting the entire cafeteria just because they serve fried okra, we might go so we can continue to eat the foods that we do enjoy. I think another trap we fall into is in making the assumption that we’ve only made it out the other side of a faith crisis if we find a way to stay in the church. I might consider boycotting a cafeteria if they put fried okra in every dish. If my family loves fired okra I might go but pick the fried okra out of everything, order the nuggets off the kids menu, or bring food from another restaurant in with me.

Nibbler, your use of the “cafeteria” approach is interesting. I understand what you are saying, and I agree it is perhaps the ONLY way to move forward. I’ve considered it for years, and am slowly working through self adoption of that process–but it is difficult because I am having to abandon the “only true church” ideal, and that is proving difficult. Someone mentioned (I think it was DJ) that I am still lots of stage 3. Probably correct on that….

Anyway, I mention “cafeteria” is interesting BECAUSE I’ve heard sermons preached against it. GBH is one who has said: “Its either true of its not…” and there are others. If we practice the “cafeteria” approach, it makes those in power (at least the ones in my mind–including bishops and SP, as well as GAs) uncomfortable; it gives the membership a way to wiggle out of adopting some of the doctrines/controls that higher ups use.

Case in point……

While on my mission, I knew a man who had a biological disorder–it involved anxiety that somehow had a CNS cause or something (I don’t know the details and am not a medical professional). He had a prescribed medication for the problem, but the side effects of the med was VERY difficult to manage. This man found that if he drank 2 beers after 5:00 PM each night, the alcohol calmed the problem and he could omit the medication. The alcohol had a significantly less serious set of problems to manage. I asked him once: “So, you really drink for a legit medicinal reason?” He thought about that for a moment, and after said: “No one has ever asked me that. And,…yeh, I do drink for that reason.”

Would a bishop accept that answer? Probably not…they would say: “Oh, you are using this as an excuse to drink!” Would a doctor accept this?…perhaps. I had a doctor tell me to my face to drink red wine,..a glass a night, because of my family history, the problems I had, and so forth.

The point is this:….at some point, you conflict with these TBM types, and the “cafeteria” approach has something else it requires…..discretion, even secrecy in some cases. This is unfortunate, but also required.

In my mind, this guy who drank the beers?…I could care less. He was kind to my companion and I,..he was a wonderful and loving man, and in my mind, during a TR interview, If I were him, i would have drank the beers and say, “Yep, I obey the WOW”. And that would have been all there was to it.

Nibbler, your use of the “cafeteria” approach is interesting. I understand what you are saying, and I agree it is perhaps the ONLY way to move forward.

It’s not the only way, but it is a way. It’s not all cafeteria or nothing. :crazy:

I love this thread!

The “cafeteria” approach to Mormonism is the only reason I am surviving right now. I disagree with the policy but I have confidence that God will make it right in the end whether it be in this life or the next. (Hopefully soon) The doubling down on “follow the prophet and your leaders” is really getting to me lately. The thing is I love President Monson and I always love his GC talks. I love the fact that Elder Renlund was chosen as an apostle. That makes me feel hopeful for the future. But sometimes leaders say things that I very much disagree with and I don’t want anyone to tell me that if I don’t “get in line” then I need to get out. That’s the feeling I get when I hear “it’s either true or it’s not”.

I personally believe that God lets everyone (including leaders) make mistakes because that is how we learn and grow the best. I believe the church is evolving for the better and mistakes that have been made in the past are slowly being corrected. I just don’t get it when people say leaders can’t lead us astray or make mistakes. That’s just not true. It’s happened before. Not only that, I think it is all part of the plan to improve. Isn’t that what the plan of salvation is all about? Isn’t that why we have the atonement?

When I have heard “cafeteria Mormonism” talked about in GC, it is used as a derogatory term. I have seen blogs saying it as an insult. That makes me fell frustrated and hurt like I’m not good enough or up to par with everyone else. But like the advice I got in my introductory thread, I am going to rely on my relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I really feel like they are patient with me and leading and guiding me. If I don’t feel condemnation from them, then I’m going to try not to let someone else make me feel less than no matter who it is.

I love this thread!

The “cafeteria” approach to Mormonism is the only reason I am surviving right now. I disagree with the policy but I have confidence that God will make it right in the end whether it be in this life or the next. (Hopefully soon) The doubling down on “follow the prophet and your leaders” is really getting to me lately. The thing is I love President Monson and I always love his GC talks. I love the fact that Elder Renlund was chosen as an apostle. That makes me feel hopeful for the future. But sometimes leaders say things that I very much disagree with and I don’t want anyone to tell me that if I don’t “get in line” then I need to get out. That’s the feeling I get when I hear “it’s either true or it’s not”.

I personally believe that God lets everyone (including leaders) make mistakes because that is how we learn and grow the best. I believe the church is evolving for the better and mistakes that have been made in the past are slowly being corrected. I just don’t get it when people say leaders can’t lead us astray or make mistakes. That’s just not true. It’s happened before. Not only that, I think it is all part of the plan to improve. Isn’t that what the plan of salvation is all about? Isn’t that why we have the atonement?

When I have heard “cafeteria Mormonism” talked about in GC, it is used as a derogatory term. I have seen blogs saying it as an insult. That makes me fell frustrated and hurt like I’m not good enough or up to par with everyone else. But like the advice I got in my introductory thread, I am going to rely on my relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I really feel like they are patient with me and leading and guiding me. If I don’t feel condemnation from them, then I’m going to try not to let someone else make me feel less than no matter who it is.

Kate5…I read your introductory thread…welcome to the forum. We play “hardball here” (as I once heard a GA say about the Q15 meetings). I’m one of those that just thrashes and bitches the most (can I say that and have this thread not get pulled?), but there are others like me.

Anyway,…I haven’t listened to a Conference talk in about 3 years…I just can’t make myself do it. And I’m an excommunicated man who, for some strange reason, wants to reconcile someday, but is unable to see a way through that. I think that only after re-marriage (if that ever happens) will the pathway open up–but not for the girl, for me.

One of the reasons I struggle with letting go of the all or nothing (and I admit this is a struggle) is because the church itself teaches it. To let go of that, I have to let go of several things:

1. Specific teachings of the church

2. The idea that the church is the one and ONLY true church (whatever that means–which is a whole other debate/thread)

3. Having the desire AND ABILITY to stand alone and be still inside

4. Idealism that was embedded so deep…but along with this is getting over anger. I’m still really in the ANGER phase. It sucks.

I’m making progress, though it sometimes doesn’t show from my posts. This site gets the full deal when I get thrashing…and I am blown away at the stable, calm and balanced responses I get here. I marvel at that…and I’m not joking.

This is a gold-mine of information and perspective. So welcome…

Thanks Nibbler for starting this thread! I love the discussion so far and this is exactly what I need.

I like the cafeteria analogy:

I like the cafeteria analogy. In a cafeteria you take the food you want to eat and you don’t take the food you don’t want to eat. We don’t tend to spend a lot of time in line fixating on why we didn’t pick the fried okra, we take our Salisbury stake, sit down, and get to eating. For the sake of argument let’s say our dad came with us and he’s adamant that we eat the fried okra. If we are still a kid we might have to grin and bear it. If we are an adult we might say something like, “Dad, I’m an adult, I’m paying for my own food now, deal with it. “

To extend the analogy, we probably wouldn’t consider boycotting the entire cafeteria just because they serve fried okra, we might go so we can continue to eat the foods that we do enjoy. I think another trap we fall into is in making the assumption that we’ve only made it out the other side of a faith crisis if we find a way to stay in the church. I might consider boycotting a cafeteria if they put fried okra in every dish. If my family loves fired okra I might go but pick the fried okra out of everything, order the nuggets off the kids menu, or bring food from another restaurant in with me.

You know, I’m tired of eating fried okra. I really don’t like it. I’ve tried some other things on the menu, but everything else tastes like fried okra to me too. I’ve heard that the food is terrible at other restaurants, so I’ve never tried anything else. Maybe I will try another restaurant, but my wife and kids really like the fried okra here. Maybe I could try something at another restaurant and bring it over with me and still have dinner with my family.

This is an interesting analogy and has given me some things to think about. Right now, it’s hard for me to find anything I like in the Church, but maybe I could try some new things and bring them with me. After not eating for a while from the cafeteria, I may realize that fried okra isn’t so bad after all.

You know, I’m tired of eating fried okra. I really don’t like it. I’ve tried some other things on the menu, but everything else tastes like fried okra to me too.

Yeah, everything is cooked in the same grease.

After not eating for a while from the cafeteria, I may realize that fried okra isn’t so bad after all.

I’ve had that experience with several foods.