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Hi, Is anyone else struggling with the CES leter? How did you make peace with your doubts?
Bec
I never read it. I am agnostic about church doctrine, history, and scripture. Mormon agnosticism is quite a comfortable place. Once there, you have to decide how to still be a member of the community with all the things they ask of you . I take comfort in the fact there are shades of agnosticism in my view so you can express belief in certain things as hope or an inkling. Take the CES letter stuff and decide you don’t know what the answers are, and that Mormonism may still be true, that the “test of faith” stuff we hear at church MAY be true, and then move on. Figure out what kind of a member you want to be, at what level…don’t let belief interefere with participation at a level you feel good about. The CES letter can be tough. My doubts trickled down at the rate at which I researched the issues, which was at a pretty frantic pace but it was my pace. The CES letter can be like drinking from a fire hose. dingobex wrote:How did you make peace with your doubts?
It’s hard to say, it’s probably different for everyone. When I viewed my thoughts as doubts I was probably fighting against the current. When I let the current take me where it would things got a little easier but it was still difficult. It’s one of those things that takes time.
It could follow a similar pattern to the 5 stages of loss and grief.
Rather than preface each of the following sentences with “maybe” I’ll go ahead and get this out of the way here. It’s like Whose Line is it Anyway? Everything’s made up and my points don’t matter.
Denial – at this stage we might view our faith transition as something that we’ve lost as opposed to something we’ve gained. The things we are learning are “doubts” as opposed to new convictions. Just the word “doubt” alone seeds our minds to think that something negative has happened.
- Anger – self explanatory.
👿 - Bargaining – this is where we might lament our loss, wonder if there’s something we can do to put everything back together the way things were.
- Depression – self explanatory.
😥 - Acceptance – this seems to be the place we arrive after all other options fail us.
It’s not a fun process but I’ve found it helps to talk about things. The CES letter covers many subjects. Is there a particular subject that you want to make peace with? Maybe start with one subject and work your way out from there. You can search the forums for specific topics or create your own. We’re here for you.
This blog post is culmination of several years of thought on these issues. http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/ces-letter/ Summary
1. The issues raised in CES Letter are not easy to deal with.
2. The more you study, the more it seems you’re opening cans of worms. The more you study, the more “messed up” LDS history and scripture seems to be. Then after even more study, the more “messed up” the Bible and even all religious history seems to be.
3. There are nuanced ways to look at these issues that can result in being able to retain intellectual integrity in a belief in the LDS church, but that belief structure might look a lot different than how it does for you now.
4. The result of all this will be moving from the little questions “were there horses in America or does the papyri match the Book of Abraham” to the big questions like “Does God exist? Does he have a plan for me? How directly involved is God in the religions in the world?” Though doubt and fear will creep in, this journey and struggle with those big questions can be very rich and fulfilling and lead to a very good place.
5. In the end, the decision you make to stay or leave the church should not be based on the “little questions” but in whether you find fulfillment and abundance in the weekly and daily engagement with Mormonism,worshiping God and serving and being served within the LDS Body of Christ and living the Christ centered LDS life.
dingobex wrote:Hi,
Is anyone else struggling with the CES leter? How did you make peace with your doubts?
Bec
Hi, dingobex – This might not help you, but I throw it out since it’s been so helpful for me: I’ve come to grips or peace with a lot of what (I gather) is in the CES Letter by reading about other religions. It seems like the CES Letter defenders and debunkers would like us to think that what’s going on here is completely unique to Mormonism. A lot of the content might be, but the process isn’t. Getting that perspective was good for me.
It doesn’t bother me, because I believe no religion is founded on absolute, universal, infallible, divine truth – that all of it is the best humans can do at any given time to approximate the divine and understand God. It’s messy – and, ironically, if it was clean and easy it wouldn’t ring true to me. I am a historian by nature and training; life and history are messy. Think about this for a moment:
What is harder to believe, the Biblical narrative of Jesus, of Nazareth, or the narrative of Joseph Smith – especially in the context of the New Teatament being written after-the-fact for specific purposes? JS might be harder for us because it is more current to us, but, objectively, JofN is WAY less logical. The whole thing is built on a supernatural premise that would be ridiculed today if it was a new, modern claim.
In summary:
I don’t expect the sort of supernatural prophets and divine cleanliness that many people expect, so I’m not bothered by the messiness.
Also, what Ann said. There is absolutely nothing in the CES letter that doesn’t apply, in principle, to every religion that has grown to any significant size in the history of the world. Accepting our leaders (even the founders) as regular prophets (like the flawed ones in our scriptures who did all kinds of stupid, and even appalling, things), removes a lot of the unrealistic expectations that lie at the heart of so much of many faith crises.
The mistake i have made and it is a BIG mistake is over reacting and sending in my resignation papers. I feel awful now and sooo sooo guilty!!!! i only sent them in a week ago, but they have processed already, and while i have messaged my bishop and stake president to grovel and apologize i think it might be too late. This is the second time i have done this, the last time was 2 years ago, granted i had not been to church since 6 months after i was baptised but this time i have been regularly attending church for 16 months and was just recently endowed and was the primary 1st counselor. I feel awful for the stupidity of my decision, the hurt i have caused others and genuine fear for what heavenly father might do. One of the missionaries who helped me find the answers i needed after i tried to resign 18 months ago, called me from his new area, he is 3 weeks away from going home, and as soon as someone told him what i’d done he called me, he reminded me of some of the spiritual witnesses i have had, all of which i am not confident to call spiritual witnesses because i’m aware like a lot of spiritual witnesses, environment and delusion can play a role, however i remember one witness i got and it’s that witness that scares me. That same elder gave me a blessing, it was a generic blessing, as i’b been reciving a prompting to get a blessing but didn’t know why, so the elder gave me a quick and sweet blessing, but part way through the blessing i felt like i had just been hit in the gut with a giant usb stick, exhausted and feeling partial to being overwhelmed i went to bed and prepared to deal with it the following day, the next day while praying, i was floored literally!!! i ended up on the kitchen floor huddled in the corner, and spent two weeks recovering from exhaustion. During the 45 minsutes that i was spoken to, chastised and warned, one of the things heavenly father spoke to me about was a contract i aparently made with him prior to coming to this earth, in that contract i agreed to marry a specific person and for a specific reason, father warned me if i did not do this, if i did not do as i was told, not only would have have the holy ghost drag me kicking and screaming into the temple but he would punish me, he wouldn’t simply remove the holy ghost from me, he would punish me, i was given a brief glimps of standing before him and mother, with my future spouce and then another glimps of life after this and the responsibility i would have to my father and thus the need to ensure i am prepared in this world.
I had forgotten about this experience until the Elder reminded me of a vision i saw in the temple, a vision of which i am still not sure i didn’t hulucinate from excitement, but in reminding me of that he inadvertently reminded me of the blessing and warning i had recieved, something i can not ignore. Prehaps i imagined the blessing, prehaps i am just crazy but i’m too dang scared to find out, the power in that message was both terrifying, comforting and palpible, so what ever heavenly father meant, i am NOT gutsy enough to mess with it.
So now i find myself, sick to my stomach, feeling incredibly stupid, and guilty, desperately hoping my foolishness can be undone but if not, i will have to make ammends and BEG BEG BEG fathers forgiveness
Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
I believe there is a 30 day waiting period that the bishop is supposed to wait and use to reach out to the member to make sure he/she really wants to resign. You may not have to grovel as much as you think. They won’t want you to leave either. Roadrunner wrote:I believe there is a 30 day waiting period that the bishop is supposed to wait and use to reach out to the member to make sure he/she really wants to resign. You may not have to grovel as much as you think. They won’t want you to leave either.
I hope so but i waived my 30 day period, i used a prewritten letter i found on a fb group i joined at the same time. Sigh
dingobex – You’ve talked about some other explanations for the spiritual experiences you’ve had. I don’t believe a loving Heavenly Father would intimidate and threaten you. Maybe you could talk with a counselor about your guilt and anxiety. And I would bet there’s a way to fix things with your membership.
Ann wrote:dingobex – You’ve talked about some other explanations for the spiritual experiences you’ve had. I don’t believe a loving Heavenly Father would intimidate and threaten you. Maybe you could talk with a counselor about your guilt and anxiety.
And I would bet there’s a way to fix things with your membership.
It wasn’t so much deliberate intimidation or a threat, more so as a chastisement and stern warning, in the exact same manner any father would, and it was intimidating because his power was palpable, not because he was threatening me but because i call feel his authority, in the same manner as a child would feel their fathers authority and be intimidated knowing that there will be consequences.Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
Once I came to the conclusion the church was a collection of fictional accounts and the ideas of men thrown together it all made sense. For me it is as easy as that. There is no analysis necessary. So I never really read the CES letter other than hitting the high points because I already had the answers to all the questions posed.
Am I correct in my conclusions. I think so, but would never claim there is no possible other explanation. If someone actually answered the questions in some satisfactory way I would love to listen, but I am not holding my breath.
That sounds like a very powerful experience. I personally find it hard to take at face value. That says everything about me and my experience and may have limited relevance to your journey. dingobex wrote:one of the things heavenly father spoke to me about was a contract i aparently made with him prior to coming to this earth, in that contract i agreed to marry a specific person and for a specific reason, father warned me if i did not do this, if i did not do as i was told, not only would have have the holy ghost drag me kicking and screaming into the temple but he would punish me, he wouldn’t simply remove the holy ghost from me, he would punish me,
My most powerful spiritual experience was one of acceptance and love. I can only know what I felt – but it seems inconsistent with what you describe here. I am not sure that what you describe fits in with modern Mormon theology. There have been some teachings to pre-mortal marriage commitments (most notably in the not official/not doctrinal play Saturday’s Warrior) but recently the emphasis has been on personal decisions, revelation, choice, and accountability. The temple ceremony itself says “and this you do of your own free will and choice.”
What you are describing hearkens back to the early days of polygamy when JS was being threatened by an angel with a drawn sword and at least one woman [Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner Smith Young)] was being told that she had been “given” to JS in a pre-mortal contract.
Quote:“Joseph said I was his before I came here and he said all the Devils in hell should never get me from him.” In her autobiography Mary wrote that Smith told her, “I was created for him before the foundation of the Earth was laid. “
Therefore there is some precedent to what you describe but it is for many (myself included) a very troubling precedent…. mired in polygamy and second class status for women. Perhaps it would help if you told us the “specific reason” why you are to be married to this specific person.
As for the CES Letter…Mormonism unabashedly answers the questions of “Where did I come from? Why am I here? and Where am I going?” These are questions of meaning and purpose – questions of the soul and human spirit – that science and “fact” are not well equipped to give satisfying answers for. The answers Mormonism gives are impressively expansive and compelling for many. These “ring true” (spiritually true) in the hearts of the adherents.
Roy wrote:That sounds like a very powerful experience. I personally find it hard to take at face value. That says everything about me and my experience and may have limited relevance to your journey.
dingobex wrote:one of the things heavenly father spoke to me about was a contract i aparently made with him prior to coming to this earth, in that contract i agreed to marry a specific person and for a specific reason, father warned me if i did not do this, if i did not do as i was told, not only would have have the holy ghost drag me kicking and screaming into the temple but he would punish me, he wouldn’t simply remove the holy ghost from me, he would punish me,
My most powerful spiritual experience was one of acceptance and love. I can only know what I felt – but it seems inconsistent with what you describe here. I am not sure that what you describe fits in with modern Mormon theology. There have been some teachings to pre-mortal marriage commitments (most notably in the not official/not doctrinal play Saturday’s Warrior) but recently the emphasis has been on personal decisions, revelation, choice, and accountability. The temple ceremony itself says “and this you do of your own free will and choice.”
What you are describing hearkens back to the early days of polygamy when JS was being threatened by an angel with a drawn sword and at least one woman [Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner Smith Young)] was being told that she had been “given” to JS in a pre-mortal contract.
Quote:“Joseph said I was his before I came here and he said all the Devils in hell should never get me from him.” In her autobiography Mary wrote that Smith told her, “I was created for him before the foundation of the Earth was laid. “
Therefore there is some precedent to what you describe but it is for many (myself included) a very troubling precedent…. mired in polygamy and second class status for women. Perhaps it would help if you told us the “specific reason” why you are to be married to this specific person.
As for the CES Letter…Mormonism unabashedly answers the questions of “Where did I come from? Why am I here? and Where am I going?” These are questions of meaning and purpose – questions of the soul and human spirit – that science and “fact” are not well equipped to give satisfying answers for. The answers Mormonism gives are impressively expansive and compelling for many. These “ring true” (spiritually true) in the hearts of the adherents.
A specific reason was not not given, just that this was not standard practice but it was required of me to be fully prepared for the responsibility when i came home. My temporal experiences would be of little consequence except to train me for when i return home.Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
dingobex wrote:Hi,
Is anyone else struggling with the CES leter? How did you make peace with your doubts?
You can make peace with doubts.It is more important how you live your life, how you treat others, than it is to have answers to questions or doubts. Any answer the church could provide, would lead to further questions that need to be answered.
Orthopraxy can replace orthodoxy, and provide peace forward, while believing like Cadence:
Cadence wrote:Am I correct in my conclusions. I think so, but would never claim there is no possible other explanation. If someone actually answered the questions in some satisfactory way I would love to listen, but I am not holding my breath.
I also believe those words, while I also see the opposite answer that Cadence has come to for him.
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