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Hello I have been struggling with my faith crisis for a long time but it intensified about a year ago. I have attempted to tell my wife and we talked a little about it . She has decided not to talk about it anymore and just says she cannot & will not be married to a non believer !!! I don’t know if she intends to follow through on that threat or not . I am at my wits end with the church and ready to leave and have done so twice each time she and the BP intervene to get me to stay. I have been in the church since 1981 and we have three adult children all inactive . I have mentioned going to counseling and she wants no part of it. I do not like living a lie anymore and I am not looking to throw out the Word of Wisdom only to drink coffee (which I drink anyway) I don’t care for drinking or tobacco . She likes going to the temple and I hate it , she is a tru believer and I am not . what to do ??? jgaskill wrote:she is a tru believer
I doubt that, or she’d pay more attention to I Corinthians 7:10-17.
I am looking at the Bible and I found Matthew 19:29 that says if you give up lands,houses or a wife in my names sake it shall be replaced a hundred fold !! I am starting to really believe more and more in the Bible. Since the bishop has intervened in the past, would he encourage her now to go to counseling with you? I doubt she would take his advice even if he supported counseling. Just because she won’t go to counseling doesn’t mean you can’t. I know that sounds kind of odd that only one of a couple go to couples counseling, but it happens more frequently than you might think. The counselor can still help you deal with your part of the relationship and can give you some tools. See — this is where I feel the church culture has really crossed the line. Our culture inadvertently ENCOURAGES divorce because people believe they need to be married to a believer to achieve the highest level in the celestial kingdom. So, as soon as the man falls off the wagon (or sometimes the woman) you have this big marital rift. Some women believe they will be single angels unless they have a successful temple marriage in this life. So, if the man is not faithful, they divorce him. Anyway, on to strategy…
I think first you might try to get at WHY she doesn’t feel she can be married to a non-believer. She may have some false ideas about the doctrine or theology that is encouraging this.
COULD PEOPLE HERE ON THIS FORUM HELP US UNDERSTAND WHETHER THE DOCTRINE ACTUALLY TEACHES THAT A WOMAN CANNOT HAVE THE HIGHEST EXALTATION IN THE CELESTIAL KINDGOM IF THEIR SEALED HUSBAND LOSES THEIR FAITH?? I personally don’t have the reasons or the interest in dissecting the doctrine — other than to say the scriptures indicate you have to have ENTERED into the everlasting covenant — not sure if it says BOTH of you have to endure to the end after entering into the covenant. Check on this — help wanted.
I would try to address that first. See if there are false beliefs on her part that, if addressed, could help you stay together.
If that is not fruitful, then it’s cost/benefit analysis time. I would ask yourself these questions.
1. What is worth more to me — my marriage or living a life without the church/gospel/full belief? If your marriage is more important then it’s time to church up and do what your wife expects. I hate to say that, but I believe it’s the price you will have to pay given your wife’s personality. Perhaps you negotiate a level of church activity you can live with and that makes her happy.
2. How would you feel divorced? do you feel upset when you think of the idea? [have you had the higher income throughout your life, and would you have to pay alimony? What would your financial life be like? Emotionally would you miss her a lot?]
3. Why won’t she go to counseling?
That is a biggie for me. Is she using religion as an excuse to get a divorce? Are there other problems in the marriage that need to be addressed?
This to me, is the ultimate “painted into a corner” situation I hope I never have to face. Some of us are lucky that we have spouses that are somewhat supportive of us in our lack luster commitment. When wives start threatening divorce then I think that if you value the marriage, then you have to pony up with the church expectations, and that is hard too.
Willard Harley Junior, in his framework for happy marriages might also counsel you to indicate that yes, you will do the church thing, but that you would appreciate some other needs your wife is not meeting in your marriage, met. This could make it more palatable to go back to full churchiness. That assumes you have needs that are currently not met in your marriage. I am assuming that…
You need to make a decision one way or another – and not blame your wife no matter what you choose: Do you want to stay in the Church with your wife or leave it and risk losing her? I don’t know what your answer will or should be. I can’t know that. Only you can make that decision.
If you want to stay with her, you do NOT need to be an orthodox believer – but you probably need to give up trying to talk about your religious views, and you probably need to be orthoprax (live a standard Mormon life).
Either way, I encourage you to see a counselor, with or without your wife.
Finally, our general culture does not encourage divorce for differing beliefs. There are way too many members married to non-believers, inside and outside membership, to say divorce is encouraged. If anything, it isn’t encouraged enough in extreme situations. Too many members are willing to consider divorce for too many reasons that could be helped by solid counseling, but divorce is not encouraged over differences in faith. That was true in the past (perhaps 30 years ago and more) more so than now, but it isn’t correct anymore.
I’m not saying it isn’t an issue at all, because it is, but it isn’t the norm by any stretch.
I second everything Ray said. Marriages are hard work. I recommend working out a truce. Maybe you can stop talking to her about your doubts and she can let you come home after SM.
At least that way you could work on the marriage without the church stuff getting in the way.
Just my 0.2$
God Bless you and your family.
Old-Timer wrote:Finally, our general culture does not encourage divorce for differing beliefs.
Not my experience — when you get two TR-holders in a marriage, who went into that marriage believing in the eternal covenant, I’ve seen the wives believe that if their husband isn’t spot on the church program, their (the wife’s) eternal salvation is at stake; perhaps that is local doctrine. Not sure how this applies to this particular situation, but I’ve heard that a lot. One priesthood leader also told my wife that one strategy his wife used when he was inactive was to threaten divorce if he didn’t shape up. Many women believe their own salvation is tied to that of their husband. Even if it’s not tied to it, they face the prospect of living eternity single or in some substandard mode. Failing that, some don’t want to live this life “unequally yoked”.
I’m not interested in a debate whether it’s church wide or doctrinal — simply a question that our opening poster might consider finding out from his wife. Does she believe that the husband’s lack of commitment influences her own salvation? If so, we rely on Ray’s knowledge of how this is NOT the case to convince her this isn’t an issue. My question is not about revealing what is church culture and what is not (although it’s clear what I think, from personal experience), but whether there is a loop hole or opportunity for reconciliation in the OP’s marriage by asking this question and resolving the concern.
SD: Interesting subject.
I had never considered that my relationship with God had anything to do with anyone other than me. My DH is my partner. My lover. My companion. My best friend. But NOT a person who gets to decide what my relationship with God is. Not now and not in the future.
What a terrible thought .. That a partner’s disbelief in an organization or any other thoughts of any sort could affect YOUR salvation. Seems Unchristian.
amateurparent wrote:What a terrible thought .. That a partner’s disbelief in an organization or any other thoughts of any sort could affect YOUR salvation. Seems Unchristian.
It is a terrible thought, but it is very real to some of us. jgaskill, I really feel for you and I think I can empathize with what you are going through now. I echo the advice that others have given that even if she is not willing to get counseling, you should go by yourself and it can be helpful. Depending on what your bishop is like (leadership roulette) a meeting with your bishop could be helpful as well. If she were counseled by her ecclesiastical leader (who she believes speaks for God) to not leave you because of your unbelief, don’t you think that would help? On the other hand, if your bishop sides with her, it would not help at all.
Please don’t hesitate to PM me.
A marriage is an agreement, a contract and commitment. Counseling doesn’t do magic. But what it does do is help for both parties to evaluate what is important to them, what they want, and if they can be committed enough to the agreement/relationship to make sacrifices and efforts to make it work.
It goes beyond just if one is a believer or not. Millions of marriages can be made to work in those situations. What matters is what you want, and what she wants.
These things can be figured out without counseling, but…if it gets stuck…counseling can help provide new approaches and homework and things to try to discover what is possible.
If she will not be married to a nonbeliever…what does that mean? Do you not believe in anything?
Does she want a temple recommend holder…and that’s it? Like…you’ll get a temple recommend but you’ll lie to get it. Then is she happy? Probably not.
Does she want a good unselfish person who goes home teaching, helps people move, cleans the church, teaches lessons about God’s love to children, teach kids how to tie knots, shares experiences and support and compassion and service?? Those can all be done without the temple recommend.
Does she want someone kind and fun and works hard to provide and makes the home a better place and deepens relationships with her and others? These go beyond church.
Start to step back from labels “mormon, not mormon” or “believer, non believer” or “active, inactive” or “TR holder, not TR holder”. Take the patient, loving approach to dig deeper to meaningful things behind the labels, and talk to her about those.
There are situations where divorce will provide the best road to peace for everyone, including children.
But it just invites new problems, it is trading more problems for current problems.
jgaskill wrote:I am at my wits end with the church
Can you see how painful that must be for her, if she holds it sacred, and dear to her heart?
In my opinion…if you try to talk to her about your doubts there may not be a relationship built that has trust and commitment to be that open, instead it just is symptoms of deeper relationship problems elsewhere in the marriage. Be careful not to take what you want, and force it on her and expect her to respond how you want her to. Instead, be more concerned with what she wants from a husband, and find ways to meet her needs in your way. I’m sure you’ve struggled for years over this, and so you don’t force things and are doing your best, continuing to listen to her and the bishop to reengage even when it is painful. But my point is it keeps coming up.
You have to decide if you can see your way of living in that marriage is worth the time and commitment to do all you can to make it work. ALL.
If you were inactive, but an outstanding, loving, unselfish, productive person who exercises all the qualities of a man she will hear at church each week…I doubt she will really leave you. If you are at your wits end at church, and it causes disharmony at home…she may not want to live that way the rest of her life. That wasn’t what she signed up for.
SilentDawning wrote:Old-Timer wrote:Finally, our general culture does not encourage divorce for differing beliefs.
Not my experience — when you get two TR-holders in a marriage, who went into that marriage believing in the eternal covenant, I’ve seen the wives believe that if their husband isn’t spot on the church program, their (the wife’s) eternal salvation is at stake; perhaps that is local doctrine. Not sure how this applies to this particular situation, but I’ve heard that a lot. One priesthood leader also told my wife that one strategy his wife used when he was inactive was to threaten divorce if he didn’t shape up. Many women believe their own salvation is tied to that of their husband. Even if it’s not tied to it, they face the prospect of living eternity single or in some substandard mode. Failing that, some don’t want to live this life “unequally yoked”.
This is the reality that I’m living right now. Unfortunately, jgaskill, nobody here can know how serious your wife is about leaving. I’m sorry your facing this, as I know it’s a scary situation to be in. It’s easy to say that the church doesn’t encourage divorcing a spouse over their doubts, but reality is more complex than that. The church might not come out and push it, but some of the doctrines do put couples in a tough position when one of them suddenly goes through a faith crisis. Some are able to weather the storm, and others aren’t. My wife walked out almost seven months ago, because of my questions about the temple. Her sisters, father, and our bishop have all encouraged her to return and have reached out to me in support. So, she does have members of the church trying to help her see that there is more to the equation than whether or not my faith is at 100%. But, she also has other friends who are members (mostly older RS sisters and one married couple who are related to BKP), who are telling her that she should be with somebody who will enjoy bringing her to the temple and will go on temple date nights (I can’t think of a more dreary way to spend a date night!).
Nobody can know how your wife is going to react. There are those in the church who would probably encourage her to work things out, and others who would not. I think the most important thing is to not give up on counseling, even if you have to start out going alone. And focus on the things you have in common. Talk more about what you DO believe that what you DON’T believe.
Good luck, man!! Hope it all goes well.
Old-Timer wrote:Finally, our general culture does not encourage divorce for differing beliefs. There are way too many members married to non-believers, inside and outside membership, to say divorce is encouraged.
Considering it’s outright counter to plenty of Scripture, (“unequally yoked” is given as a reason not to marry, but never as a legitimate reason for divorce) we should be actively discouraging people from considering it.
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