Tithing on surplus?

I have read the bishop’s/Stake Presidents handbook of instruction and it does not go into this detail. In fact Bishops are asked not to dive down into these questions as the church leaves it up to you. I would be very surprised if you ever would have a bishop ask you about gross vs. net. In my ward I have a friend that has held most every calling someone can have and is as gung ho about the gospel as could be.

In high priests group last month we had a lesson on tithing and the clear conclusion was that each person has to decide for themselves and it is between him and the Lord. There was disagreement with the “well do you want to have gross or net blessings?” as seeing paying tithing equivalent to playing a slot machine and expecting and times to get a big payback.

I also look at your motives for even considering moving to gross and they are motivated by a loving parent wanting to provide a better environment for his children, not someone that is greedy and wants more money.

It does not matter what I say as this is between you and the Lord, but I say, “Enjoy your house!”

I say whatever feels right for you. I have enjoyed our children growing up in our house with our garden.

Your choice. No need to explain to anyone or justify your choice.

The specific thread about tithing in the post to which Minyan Man linked was a great disucussion. The link is:

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3390

There was disagreement with the “well do you want to have gross or net blessings?” as seeing paying tithing equivalent to playing a slot machine and expecting and times to get a big payback.

The ole net vs. gross blessings. You know what… “surplus blessings” sounds pretty good to me.

Well we could look at it as making sure we don’t obligate the Lord for blessings we don’t even have room to receive. Or maybe I should up my tithing percentage above 10% and get a bigger house and storage shed so that I DO have room to receive all the blessings.

Bear – if you don’t know me well you might not realize I am being quite sarcastic and hoping that you chuckle a bit when reading this.

I decided surplus tithing was viable for a few reasons.

1. D. Michael Quinn, in his book “Extensions of Power” traced the history of tithing, from the definition of 10% of “increase” [according to the 19th century definition] to a variety of other methods, to the current cultural norm of 10% of gross, of which net has become culturally acceptable — tied to the temple recommend.

I saw how the definition of tithing changed as leaders ran into financial difficulties in the funding of the church. It showed me how 10% of gross or net was less of a firm, inspired commandment, and more “policy” by managers who sought better and better ways to fund church operations.

The current method/definition worked, and I believe it has generated strong surpluses for the church, they are not willing to give up by a relaxed tithing policy.

Anyway, after you take “divinity” out of the definition, it becomes easy to use a definition that fits your own conception of what tithing should be.

[Note: Michael Quinn is a former member of the church who I think was excommunicated as part of the September 6 purge of intellectuals, but he did present credible, scholarly research. The fact that he is no longer a member of the church didn’t change the quality of his reasons and facts he shared.]

2. I compared the emphasis on self-reliance in the church, with the mandate to pay tithing even if it makes you short of basic necessities like food, shelter, etcetera, making up the difference on church welfare.

That seemed incredibly wrong to me — that self-reliance is important, but only if it doesn’t interfere with paying your tithing. Given my own belief that the church tends to love itself more than its individual members, it seemed easy to tithing on the amount you have left over after you pay for the basics in your life. And its up to you, to decide what those basics are.

We all know you put your own mask on before you put the oxygen mask on your child.

3. I saw families who would pay tithing all their life, run into financial difficulties later in their lives, and then go to the church for help. Our Bishop wold ask them to cut their cable, and other minimal comforts. They would expect them to do chapel cleaning and other things. It just seemed wrong that members are expected to give up so much for their whole life, but as soon as members need help financially, there are strings attached to the church help.

4. I tried to get access to church counseling over a church-inspired trauma in my life. And they were booked. No places available. Yet they own 5% of the state of Florida. Should not these tithing funds, and even funds held by church business interests be used to help provide members with the services they need for inner peace and spirituality? Should they not be be used to make the members lives better? In general, I have found the church rather tight-fisted..

5. Although some Bishops can reason out what your tithing should be based on market rates for jobs like yours, or things you tell them, they don’t know income. So, there is a certain amount of conscience involved in paying tithing.

6.

Check out the FP letter from the 1970’s regarding tithing. In church books they conveniently leave out the last sentence, but it belongs in any interpretation of tithing as far as I can see:

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.

Income has different meanings, but in my understanding of business, it is sales-expenses= operating income. Operating income minus taxes = net income. That to me, means surplus.

I could go on, but these things make it very easy for me to adopt a version of tithing that I think is appropriate for me.

And ultimately, whether I pay at all is my choice.

IMO, He needs to start getting it from the government. Take it off the top of their cut.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Everything scriptural and from early church leaders describes something more like surplus… a phrase sometimes used is for those “who have means” to pay tithing, which only implies after expenses are met. To me, paying surplus tithing is the only way that harmonizes with scriptures and with the broad measure of church teachings (e.g., to save money, to not get into debt, to have food storage, to give charitably, to have large families, etc.), and is balanced across all economic classes and family sizes and nationalities, and resonates to me with the fair and “yoke is light” God of my understanding.

And apparently, according to its original definition and application, even surplus tithing may be more than intended, in many cases. There’s a quote found just recently that will soon be published in the Joseph Smith Papers Project from Bishop Partridge (who was there when the D&C 119 revelation was given and was the bishop of the church at the time – so he should know), where he describes the “interest” of D&C as applying to net worth as if an investment. So if your net worth is $1,000,000, you would take 6% interest of that (6% was common interest at the time), or $60,000, and then take a tenth of that, or $6,000. Yes, for someone whose net worth is a million dollars, $6,000 could be considered a full and honest tithe, according to its original “standing law forever” definition.

To me, tithing is more like paying the gym membership. Sure, it’s important, so do it. But it’s not really a measure of anything beyond that. If you only pay the gym membership but never go and exercise, what’s the point? So faith and service and especially charity are what is more important (and emphasized much more in scriptures than tithing). Charity is what involves faith and choice and personal application. In recent years, I’ve paid much less tithing (though still full tithing, per my understanding), but try to practice much more charitable giving. And I don’t really care about a measure of blessings… I don’t think of God as a vending machine of blessings… but it feels more like the right thing to do, regardless.

This is a great article sharing several quotes in favor of the surplus method: http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/03/tithing-considered-paying-surplus/