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The above is the topic of an upcoming meeting. I believe it is another of those topics meant to mask the real issue – the loss of our youth and Millennials and how to deal with it. Nevertheless, I do have some thoughts on the subject (what a surprise, right? 
I think when talking about the atonement that we (not me or you, of course) focus too much on guilt and condemnation (a la MOF) and far too little on grace and redemption. Likewise, I think we focus too much on the process of repentance and too little on the outcome. I’m just going to leave it at that for now because I’d like to hear what others think. Your thoughts?
DarkJedi wrote:I believe it is another of those topics meant to mask the real issue – the loss of our youth and Millennials and how to deal with it.
If I post early in the thread I might miss the intent of it; if I don’t post now I’ll lose my thought. So here goes.Do you know anything about the people or discussions that generated the topic? Is it boiling down mostly to, How can we get them to care about chastity?
I’ve been thinking lately about how atonement and repentance discussions are going to lose all their strength and beauty if they become just another “in” to talking about sexual conduct. The atonement has the horsepower to address ALL our sins and transgressions, but we so rarely use its torque to talk about anything beyond sex.
DJ, what I always say is that repentance is not about the past, but about the future. It is forward-looking. It’s like walking through a door. When we go through a doorway, we aren’t looking at the room we just left, but the room we will now occupy. In repentance, we see what we wish we were and we set in motion the path to become it. FWIW, I also feel that the Atonement is often over-played. See how much Jesus loves you! But really, in our theology, he didn’t perform the Atonement so that we would honor him, but so that we would have a way to gain power in repentance. As we teach it, the Atonement is the
mechanismthat makes repentance possible. IMO, a lesson on “atonement and repentance” should be 80% repentance as described in my first paragraph. Grace – We need to add Grace. Grace for ourselves, for humanity, for this life. I am with OON, we have made the atonement this high jump that each of us must attempt to make, and every time we don’t do it right, the bar drops and we fall. Then we try again. I know you are huge believer in Grace – I think you need to tie that in.
Ann wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I believe it is another of those topics meant to mask the real issue – the loss of our youth and Millennials and how to deal with it.
If I post early in the thread I might miss the intent of it; if I don’t post now I’ll lose my thought. So here goes.Do you know anything about the people or discussions that generated the topic? Is it boiling down mostly to, How can we get them to care about chastity?
I’ve been thinking lately about how atonement and repentance discussions are going to lose all their strength and beauty if they become just another “in” to talking about sexual conduct. The atonement has the horsepower to address ALL our sins and transgressions, but we so rarely use its torque to talk about anything beyond sex.
A discussion on sex/chastity will not likely come out openly in this forum and I’m not sure that’s really the concern. I really do think it’s an attempt to find a way to stop the bleeding.
Trying not to tip things too much, I see part of the issue in our area as a misunderstanding on the part of the youth/young adults that “since I have drank beer (or smoked pot) I’m a sinner and there’s no room for me here – but I like beer (or pot).” In truth, that’s who there’s the most room for – but why come to a place where they’re judged as inferior (even though that may only be a perception)?
My thoughts (before reading others’ response to the OP)… We’ve swung too far on the pendulum of teaching/emphasis to try hard to prevent sin and mistakes, that guilt and pressure is not always helpful for all youth.
I think we need to swing it back some to accepting mistakes happen. They always will. The reason the atonement is a “thing” is because God knew we’d need it.
Youth can be reassured that no sin is too great for the atonement. No talks in church to inspire will prevent all mistakes.
Part of learning is taking advice and trying to avoid mistakes others made, but also, when it doesn’t make sense and we choose some things and make mistakes…it’s ok if we learn from it.
I think youth should be allowed to make mistakes. De-emphasize the guilt, and re-emphasize the course correction and joy that comes through commitment to be closer to God so they feel that lesson deep in their soul.
Now that I’ve read the thread….I like this…
Ann wrote:The atonement has the horsepower to address ALL our sins and transgressions
and this…
On Own Now wrote:repentance is not about the past, but about the future. It is forward-looking.
and this…
mom3 wrote:Grace – We need to add Grace. Grace for ourselves, for humanity, for this life. I am with OON, we have made the atonement this high jump that each of us must attempt to make, and every time we don’t do it right, the bar drops and we fall. Then we try again.
Bingo! I like those thoughts.
On Own Now wrote:It’s like walking through a door.
Thanks. I like the simplicity.The best I can offer is to share what I have written on my personal blog about repentance, since I have written voluminously about it. (Anyone surprised?) 😆 The link to the posts tagged under repentance (51 posts) is:
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/search/label/Repentance My favorites are:
“
A Fresh View of Repentance” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html “
More Thoughts on Repentance” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-repentance.html I like things that I have gleaned from “Believing Christ” and Brad Wilcox’s “His Grace is Sufficient.” Believing Christ has some great Grace centric quotes that come from the BoM. Who knew that these grace scriptures were sitting right under our Mormon noses?
Bro. Robinson uses the example of merged checking accounts to explain the atonement. The individual checking account has a low balance and is plagued with overdraft NSF checks. The savior checking account is has an INFINITE balance. The atonement merges these two accounts.
Some people are afraid that this would just be a license for irresponsibility. It could also be seen as an opportunity to learn financial responsibility with a supportive and loving “safety net”. Is it more responsible to hoard my funds for a rainy day or empowered by the generous abundance of the atonement to share with my brothers and sisters in need?
Brad Wilcox talks about babies learning how to walk. We do not scold them for falling down. we cheer them on to get back up and try again.
Brad also talks of the atonement as Jesus paying for piano lessons. Jesus paid the bill in full. Mistakes are expected. Our duty is to practice. We do not repay Jesus by practicing – but we do honor his investment in us by practicing.
Our mortal experience can be seen as a baby learning to walk or a small child practicing the piano. Mistakes are expected, were planned for, and are “covered” from the beginning.
My thoughts are that we need to get out of the discipline business in the Church. That’s a youth killer, right there.
If you are a young person and you have been taught your whole life that if you sin, you need to go talk to the bishop, well, you know what that means. You get disciplined. And the discipline is kinda public shaming. No one wants to do that. So they don’t. And so they think they can’t repent, so they might as well give up. They are sinners and the Church doesn’t want them, so they tap out.
Now if “talking to the bishop” actually meant that….a kind word of encouragement, counsel about grace, that sort of thing. Imagine.
Weaselgirl wrote:My thoughts are that we need to get out of the discipline business in the Church.
I like this thought.
But I wonder how the leadership feels they can help teach and correct without discipline. As a parent, I wonder that all the time. If I discipline too much…I can just create a “me vs child” position that can push them away and break down trust. If I don’t discipline, my teenagers just go do what they want with their friends.
How do we do the loving and teaching and strike the balance of punishing appropriately?
My guess is it has something to do with what you said…get out of the business of discipline…and focus on loving repentance, which doesn’t eliminate discipline, but incorporate it. IDK. I’m just thinking out loud.
Heber13 wrote:Weaselgirl wrote:My thoughts are that we need to get out of the discipline business in the Church.
I like this thought.
But I wonder how the leadership feels they can help teach and correct without discipline. As a parent, I wonder that all the time.
How do we do the loving and teaching and strike the balance of punishing appropriately?
My guess is it has something to do with what you said…get out of the business of discipline…and focus on loving repentance, which doesn’t eliminate discipline, but incorporate it. IDK. I’m just thinking out loud.
Here’s the thing. The Church isn’t anyone’s parent.Why does the Church even need that role? I don’t know that we think about this enough.
Look. discipline is supposed to be learning how to be a disciple, right?
Weaselgirl wrote:The Church isn’t anyone’s parent.
Agreed. Yet…there seems to be a lot of a passive aggressive culture, that defers to authority, and parents are looking for direction from bishops or authority to tell them what to do…and it starts to become rules and with rules come punishments…and it feels more of a parent-child type relationship that I agree with you is unhealthy. We should all take ownership of our religion and the church should serve families, not the other way around.
Weaselgirl wrote:discipline is supposed to be learning how to be a disciple, right?
To me, discipline is about changing behavior. All organizations do it. My work does it to adults. Schools to children. Police to citizens. That does include becoming a disciple to Christ also, I think. “Go and sin no more” as the Lord said.
There is a christ-like way to do it, and a less than christ-like way, I think. But it is a part of becoming a disciple. I think when leaders get lazy, they resort to tactics that just induce guilt and shame, instead of love and reproach. It isn’t all on the leader. My brother was a great bishop. For some people, no matter how loving he was as he held the line, some people couldn’t receive his message in love. He often thought it was because they were suffering inside too much to try to change.
The mistake would be to think all people are the same. Not all people are hard-hearted. Not all are humble. It’s pretty individual, and policies and guidelines seem to make them universal, which will not work for some people who just become casualties of mortal organizations.
Heber13 wrote:
Weaselgirl wrote:The Church isn’t anyone’s parent.
Agreed. Yet…there seems to be a lot of a passive aggressive culture, that defers to authority, and parents are looking for direction from bishops or authority to tell them what to do…and it starts to become rules and with rules come punishments…and it feels more of a parent-child type relationship that I agree with you is unhealthy. We should all take ownership of our religion and the church should serve families, not the other way around.
I had never drawn the connections between the church leadership acting in the role of a parent and us as the children. I belong to another group where we talk a lot about parent-child dynamics between spouses – this usually develops when one spouse is perceived as being incapable of or choosing to accept more responsibility in the home, leaving the other spouse to pick up the pieces. In both cases, I think this attitude develops when one side thinks they “know better” or “are better” that the other side and that the other side should automatically “hearken” (deliberate word use covering both “listen” and “obey”). And side A may be right – they might actually know better, or have a better protocol in place. But the battle is lost when side A chimes in with this fact condescendingly or usurps authority this way. A lot of times, the side A’s of the conversation are absolutely right – they are handling more responsibilities and they need side B to step up and stop being a sidelines player. But if side A is always harping on side B, the message gets lost. My goal with every post I put up is to help this group either develop better protocols for side A/side B communications, or remember that side A can’t do everything – and both prioritize and get through the mourning period regarding the things that didn’t get done. The key isn’t “because I said so”, but I feel it is applying one of the principles President Uchdorf gave a few years ago and “start where you are”. Have conversations about principles and ask interactive, thought-provoking questions centered on the individual.
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