Home Page Forums Support The state of me

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #210823
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hey there, StayLDSers! It’s been some months, maybe a year? since I was last here. You all helped me through a tough transition. I thought I’d give a little update about where I’m at—although, I don’t really know where I’m at, so I’m hoping the act of writing this will help me figure it out. Haha.

    A quick intro for newer site members who may not know who I am. I was born and raised in the church and went on a mission. About a year after getting home, I went though a faith crisis. I didn’t have a problem with any specific bit of church history or doctrine. My issue was more about trying to understand how the Spirit works and how it’s intertwined with culture and belief. Unfortunately my heartfelt prayer at the time wasn’t answered—in fact, it left me feeling pretty awful. I landed in a state of agnosticism. Shortly after that time, my wife and I got married outside the temple. My wife is a faithful believer. I promised her that I would always support her and the kids in church, so I always attended church. But over the years I became completely disengaged. I turned down a couple callings and spent most of the three hour block in the foyer. When my oldest son’s baptism approached, I was ready to throw in the towel. But the lovely folks here at StayLDS pulled me away from the brink. I ended up baptizing my son and returning to almost full activity. I don’t have a temple recommend, but I have a calling in the nursery and have since baptized my second child.

    So where am I now, 14 years after a faith crisis and 2 years into a transition period? Not a whole lot has changed about what I believe. I still consider myself agnostic, although I have found more reason for hope than I had in the past. For me, just knowing that there are others out there like me, who struggle with church and gospel issues, yet find a way to stay—that was a revelation and a healing balm to my soul that helped me slowly change my perspective in a positive way. I now find it easier to listen to those I disagree with and have found myself able to talk about certain subjects, and even teach lessons, without feeling sick to my stomach with anxiety or feeling like a fraud. The fact that I’m teaching extremely simplified lessons to nursery kids helps! I skip the ones about Joseph Smith. :D

    For the past year, I’ve found myself in a status quo situation that I enjoy. I go hang out with the nursery kids for two hours every week. I have no idea what they’re teaching in SS and EQ. Hardly anyone talks to me, which is fine by me (I’m a pretty severe introvert). We have six kids and are often late to sacrament meeting or miss it entirely due to sickness, so most of the time I don’t even know what’s going on in the ward. Our home teachers drop by with a treat every now and then but never come inside. I quit Facebook and most of my blog reading, so I hardly even know what’s going on in the wider world of Mormondom.

    I don’t pay tithing and don’t hold a temple recommend. I have slowly, oh so slowly, been working my way towards feeling OK about paying tithing. I kind of view it as membership dues, a way to give a little bit back to an organization that, frankly, does a lot for my family, and a way to practice selflessness. Before my faith crisis, I never had a problem with tithing. I only stopped paying it because as an agnostic I didn’t see the point (I see the point now and think I was shortsighted back then). I kept telling myself I could start paying again at any time. But it’s much harder than I imagined it would be. I have it all planned out. I’m going to take a surplus approach, so it really shouldn’t be a huge hardship. There will likely be months where I have no surplus. Yet taking that first step is still hard.

    The fact that my wife and I don’t have a temple marriage is sometimes a sore spot. I think she has come to peace with our marriage as it currently is, but I know she still holds on to hope for that temple sealing one day. The kids get taught about temple marriage in church, and the older ones know we don’t have that. It would make her and the kids so happy to get that temple sealing. I want to make them happy. Yet I’m not sure I can take that step, even if I were paying tithing, while feeling fully authentic.

    I don’t really have a problem sustaining church leaders, supporting Joseph Smith as a restorer and prophet (that term doesn’t mean a whole lot to me, but I don’t think it’s wrong to describe Joseph that way), or keeping the word of wisdom (never been interested in coffee, let alone anything else).

    I struggle with prayer. We hold family prayer every day, and I take my turn when it comes. I’ve even said prayers in church. I view it as a social function. But I still don’t feel totally comfortable with it. My own faith crisis peaked with a failed prayer. I don’t know if God is even there, let alone listening to me, and I have little to say to him. If he’s there, he’s either an absentee parent or a tough-love parent, so I wouldn’t expect coddling from him either way. I’ve toyed with conversational-type prayers, just chatting with a God who MIGHT be there while in my car or whatever, but it doesn’t really float my boat.

    I recently started taking the sacrament again, for the first time in 14 years. I finally realized that I had been building it up in my mind as if it were this giant, symbolic event that would MEAN something about the validity of the church and my commitment to it. But when I baptized my son and daughter, I viewed it mostly as a commitment on their part to follow the example of Jesus Christ (love everyone, follow your conscience, etc.) and join an organization that follows his teaching. Why couldn’t I view it that simply for myself? It’s just a renewing of a commitment to follow Christ’s ideals. So one week I just shut my mind down, ignored my fears, and took a piece of bread when the tray came around. It was kind of anticlimactic. :)

    So that’s roughly where I am with my faith journey. Not too far from when I was last here on the boards, but I’m counting each baby step as a victory.

    #312730
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Wow, that sounds great. I’m glad things are looking up and thanks for the update.

    #312731
    Anonymous
    Guest

    You have done a lot. Your family is stable — your agnosticism (my approach to much of Mormonism now) has allowed you to exist in the church without opposition or conflict, other than with the temple marriage thing. Which sounds episodic, or at least, managed. You have learned to accept prayer without angst in church, taught lessons, and are comfortable in a ward that doesn’t pay much attention to you. Plus you hold a calling and you don’t mind it. Your children are getting a character and religious education that is important, and hopefully, associating with children that have good values.

    You even made your peace with the Sacrament.

    All these are phenomenal pieces toward being at peace with the church in spite of not being a traditional believer. Here is my definition of Stage 5

    Quote:


    “Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it”. — SD

    As far as I am concerned, you are doing very well. I even suspect you may, at some point, be at peace with going to the temple with your wife for a sealing, maybe.

    You’re doing well!

    #312732
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks for the update. In some ways we are very much alike. It seems things are working for you at the moment. Don’t be a stranger, you do have things to offer others who struggle.

    #312733
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thank you so much for sharing your current situation. It means more to me, and others, than you realize.

    It is wonderful to know we have helped, and everyone here needs to know it can happen as it did for you.

    #312734
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I really liked the way you described clearly where you are at and trying to make things work.

    Do you think taking all your kids with you to the temple, and being sealed as a family, would be a more love-building and bonding family experience for everyone, that it may outweigh some of the doubts or concerns you have?

    Just curious what you’ve thought about that. It sounds like baptism for your kids ended up being a positive thing. Would temple then logically follow that same path of what is good long term for the kids, even while not certain in your mind what you believe about temples?

    I respect your ability to exemplify being so authentic to yourself. Your children have a great example to follow.

    #312735
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks for the update. I had one question – is your wife endowed? I often wonder why a woman would want to be sealed if she really understood the role of women in the temple. I know we are taught to want it without anyone really pointing out what it means, but I am curious. Maybe she hasn’t seen or listened to the sealing. It’s a very lopsided affair. I was pretty appalled by it when I got married, and I was very fully invested in the church.

    #312736
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks for the update. I am so glad that you have found a sustainable path.

    I taught 4 year olds a few years ago and loved it. Those little kids are some of my best friends at church. :thumbup:

    #312737
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Daeruin,

    It’s great to hear from you and I’m glad things are going well for you.

    On Own Now.

    #312738
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Heber13 wrote:

    Do you think taking all your kids with you to the temple, and being sealed as a family, would be a more love-building and bonding family experience for everyone, that it may outweigh some of the doubts or concerns you have?

    Just curious what you’ve thought about that. It sounds like baptism for your kids ended up being a positive thing. Would temple then logically follow that same path of what is good long term for the kids, even while not certain in your mind what you believe about temples?


    I expect being sealed as family would be a good experience. I know it would make a lot of people happy—my wife, my kids, my parents, many extended family members, and so forth. I would love to make everyone happy that way.

    The biggest obstacle to me is the temple recommend interview, specifically question #1. When I say I’m agnostic, I really do mean that I just don’t know whether God exists. I have no clue. Yeah, there are some things that seem to make a higher power more likely, but in the end we don’t actually understand all those things. People, including my wife, say that belief is a choice, but I don’t agree. I can’t just choose to believe something that does not actually seem probable. Such a “chosen” belief wouldn’t be genuine. Because there are just as many things that, to me, indicate there is no higher power. I really don’t believe it’s possible to know, and choosing one side or the other just seems like guessing.

    I think a big part of my problem is that I don’t feel the need for a god. Maybe if I lived in extreme poverty or pain, I would feel that need, but the fact is I live in immense privilege. Not that I’m rich or anything. I’m pretty solid middle class American. But compared to most of the world, my life is comfortable and pain-free. I don’t have a lot of angst about the afterlife. I don’t want to die, in fact I’m scared of it, but that’s a pretty normal fear of the unknown. It’s just that I don’t feel a great need to worry about stuff that I can’t know for certain.

    Having said that, I think it would be pretty great if there were caring, powerful heavenly parents who would make everything right and shepherd us on to greater heights. I hope we have an older spiritual brother who will take away all the massive amounts of pain in the world. It’s just that I don’t personally have a specific longing for that. I guess I’m too much of a pragmatist that way. In the absence of knowledge, I don’t see the point in putting so much emotional energy in that basket. So I sometimes even have a hard time saying that I hope God exists. I mean, it would be great. It really would. I do hope God exists. But it’s a kind of abstract, distant hope. And feeling that way gives me this weird sense of shame, like I must be some kind of selfish, stupid jerk in order to be so apathetic about God.

    At any rate, I’ve rambled enough about that. The point is, I would have a really hard time looking a Bishop straight in the eye and saying “Yes” when asked if I have faith in and a testimony of God. I don’t really want to do that without having a good personal reason for saying yes. I want going to the temple to really mean something to me personally, besides making a bunch of other people super happy. Maybe a few minutes of uncomfortable cognitive dissonance and ethical angst in a Bishop’s office would be worth all the joy it would bring to others. But I haven’t felt like I could do it.

    #312739
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Daeruin wrote:

    The biggest obstacle to me is the temple recommend interview, specifically question #1. When I say I’m agnostic, I really do mean that I just don’t know whether God exists. I have no clue. Yeah, there are some things that seem to make a higher power more likely, but in the end we don’t actually understand all those things. People, including my wife, say that belief is a choice, but I don’t agree. I can’t just choose to believe something that does not actually seem probable. Such a “chosen” belief wouldn’t be genuine. Because there are just as many things that, to me, indicate there is no higher power. I really don’t believe it’s possible to know, and choosing one side or the other just seems like guessing.

    I think when someone says “belief is a choice” we subconsciously provide a lot of context. When coming from an orthodox believer we might extend the phrase to mean, “belief is a choice, I made the right one, you’re making the wrong one, all you have to do is decide to believe what I believe and you’re good.” It becomes a binary set of choices. What if we stripped out the notion that there is a correct belief and an incorrect belief, does the phrase “belief is a choice” make more sense? Logic, plausibility, weighing something against lived experiences, feelings, etc. might all contribute towards making a choice as to whether or not to believe something.

    #312740
    Anonymous
    Guest

    hawkgrrrl wrote:

    Thanks for the update. I had one question – is your wife endowed? I often wonder why a woman would want to be sealed if she really understood the role of women in the temple. I know we are taught to want it without anyone really pointing out what it means, but I am curious. Maybe she hasn’t seen or listened to the sealing. It’s a very lopsided affair. I was pretty appalled by it when I got married, and I was very fully invested in the church.


    I meant to reply to this earlier, but I ran out of time. My wife went through the temple a couple years after we got married. She still goes a few times a year. For whatever reason, she has never been bothered by the patriarchy in the church.

    #312741
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Daeruin wrote:

    The biggest obstacle to me is the temple recommend interview, specifically question #1. When I say I’m agnostic, I really do mean that I just don’t know whether God exists. I have no clue. Yeah, there are some things that seem to make a higher power more likely, but in the end we don’t actually understand all those things. People, including my wife, say that belief is a choice, but I don’t agree. I can’t just choose to believe something that does not actually seem probable. Such a “chosen” belief wouldn’t be genuine. Because there are just as many things that, to me, indicate there is no higher power. I really don’t believe it’s possible to know, and choosing one side or the other just seems like guessing.

    nibbler wrote:

    I think when someone says “belief is a choice” we subconsciously provide a lot of context. When coming from an orthodox believer we might extend the phrase to mean, “belief is a choice, I made the right one, you’re making the wrong one, all you have to do is decide to believe what I believe and you’re good.” It becomes a binary set of choices. What if we stripped out the notion that there is a correct belief and an incorrect belief, does the phrase “belief is a choice” make more sense? Logic, plausibility, weighing something against lived experiences, feelings, etc. might all contribute towards making a choice as to whether or not to believe something.


    I agree for the most part, except I think that all those contributing factors (especially the “feelings” part) are the convincing force. After thinking about them all, it becomes obvious to you that one way of looking at it makes more sense than the other—in other words, you become convinced. I guess there can sometimes be a gray area where, after considering everything, you’re not sure one way or the other. That’s what Terryl Givens proposed in his Letter to a Doubter, pointing out that it’s those gray areas where our moral character really shines through, and that’s what God must surely be looking for (more so than knowledge of some fact, at least). But say you choose some particular belief when you’re not truly certain. I still don’t see it as actual belief. To me, to believe something means that you are convinced it’s true—belief implies certitude. Lacking certitude, a so-called “choice” to believe one way over another has more to do with what you WANT to be true, or what you think is ethically better, however you define that.

    #312742
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Daeruin wrote:

    To me, to believe something means that you are convinced it’s true—belief implies certitude. Lacking certitude, a so-called “choice” to believe one way over another has more to do with what you WANT to be true, or what you think is ethically better, however you define that.

    I am experimenting in a world of uncertain faith. I have a certain set of facts. It is up to me to determine what it all “means”. I organize the facts into a narrative. Hopefully the narrative adds something to the facts that wasn’t there before and that this new element is helpful.

    That to me is uncertain faith. I believe, Help thou my unbelief.

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.