date rape

dingo – so sorry to hear both about your rape and then the added salt to that wound by a church leader. The only good little sliver in your brief story is how you were able to stand up for yourself a bit and then your bishop listened. I think as common as your initial experience with your bishop is, I don’t think most girls have the confidence to essentially correct a bishop. And for the small number that do, not all have a bishop that then reconsider’s their position. I fear the more common response from a bishop is to see this as not being humble and accepting responsibility for your action of sinning.

I have read cover to cover the Church Handbook of Instructions (both the first and the second). I actually studied the first book while I was in a bishopric. I do not recall coming away from this with any hint of “make damn sure that someone says they were raped that they were actually raped and didn’t go along with it.” But I do think that across much of the world rape culture is fairly rampant. This is especially in the church culture. I think many men assume if a women didn’t almost fight to the death that the woman was in some way allowing (or even wanting) the sex and thus have broken a commandment.

I think we see with the BYU honor code office / Title IX office issue and all the stories coming out of it that this is an area that church culture (mixed in with some polices) still needs to (a) acknowledge (b) start working to correct.

Sorry you have had to go through this. It sure sounds like you didn’t deserve this and didn’t do anything wrong. In fact you did what was right – you stood up for yourself. Be proud of that. I am proud of you for doing it.

My heart breaks when I hear these stories.

There is a place for forgiveness, it is a gospel teaching. I think because we can let go of letting the sins of others infect our lives or we can become overly affected by it that the past impacts how we live our life today. Letting go of some things can help us move past it and find how special we are and the goodness in our lives we want to experience, despite the awful and unjust things that happen to us. The atonement is the idea we can have faith that all justice will be exacted, and we can leave that up to the lord.

I get that. There is some wisdom in how we inwardly look at how to heal. I have been at the unfair receiving end of injustice, and had to work through it in my life.

Religion, and religious leaders, are there to help us work out our mortality and salvation. Religious leaders are not trained professionals in the area of law and how to handle crimes, or psychologists how to handle our emotional struggles, or doctors on how to heal the body. Unfortunately, I think some people wrongly believe the mantle of priesthood office and power to revelation wrongly gives power into areas outside their jurisdiction. And they place too much trust in the arm of flesh.

And so, people go to bishops for things they shouldn’t. Even financial decisions, marriage decisions…lots of things, even handling abuse. Bishops try their hardest to channel gospel principles as they understand them to try to help others.

From my experiences in life…there are pros and cons that we need to learn about when bishops are involved:

Pros:

– They counsel with lots of families and so they know some things or resources that have helped others. For example, therapists that have positive feedback. Divorce lawyers that are helpful. Financial planners that can help get budgets set and get out of debt. There are practical advice from experience.

– Also, they do try to help look at things through gospel principles, so there are teachings and things that they can help us remember when sometimes our judgment is clouded by our emotions in our situations. It is sometimes helpful to have a sounding board.

Cons:

– What works for another family may not work in my situation. So…while it is a good recommendation…not all things bishops do and say are guaranteed revelation from God on what I need in my situation.

– They are limited by their frame of reference and experience. For example, one bishop tried to give me marriage advice by sharing how he resolves things with his wife…not realizing his experience with his wife is not applicable in my situation (…as if I hadn’t tried the basic stuff already). All they know is what they can see from their point of view.

I have to take it as advice, but figure things out on my own with personal revelation what works for me.

In my family when we experienced an event of abuse by another ward member, I had bishops tell me to focus on forgiveness and not to raise the issue. It didn’t feel right to me. After receiving personal revelation, I instead raised the issue with police and it was handled properly. The bishop was then supportive and helped find resources like therapists and other things he was aware of, and raised the issue with the stake president on how to help our family, and manage info in the ward as an outcome of it.

I guess the lesson I learned is that I should not have unrealistic expectations of what bishops can or cannot do, or what God will or will not do directly in my life. Some things I have to figure out and in doing so, determine how I will find peace and happiness in my life, and how I can grow while enduring things in this life.

There can be truth in knowing how to forgive others so we can find peace. That can get out of balance and go beyond the mark if it excuses others from rightly being brought to justice, or from protecting ourselves or our families in the future, or from blaming ourselves too much when that could also hold us back from healing.

When Laman and Lemuel attacked Nephi, while he did suffer, and tried not to hate them…he was not told it was his fault. That is important to know.

There was a good talk by Elder Scott here.

While there are some good things in it, there are some things that won’t apply to your situation, but may apply to others. It is a mixed bag.

What do you think about that talk by Elder Scott? Is there a place for forgiveness…but also a need to not blame the victim too much? Where is the balance?

What I liked about the Huffington Post article was that the husband reacted the way he should have.

Eventually, I met a Mormon guy and we had a Mormon wedding. I felt safe enough with my new husband to tell him what had happened to me.

He got mad.

I’d expected this reaction.

What I didn’t expect was I wasn’t the one he was upset with. He was angry with the Mormon church for treating me like the perpetrator.

That is the way we should react. He should support his wife, and validate her, and help her heal. He should cleave unto her and none else…not even church volunteer leaders.

We were supposed to call the Help line the church provides whenever we encountered situations involving sexual abuse, rape, etcetera, and they would counsel us from there.

One of my biggest concerns is that the scriptures indicate the person who does not forgive is worse than the sinner. I hate to say this, but HOGWASH. The matter gets even worse when the person who committed the infraction (the rapist, the abuser, the forgivee) reminds the victim of this. They have NO PLACE asserting their superiority that way, or giving unsolicited advice.

I had a situation years ago with an adoption where a member of our Bpric was our LDS social services counselor in an adoption. He screwed up badly, and it really hurt my wife and my testimony the way he handled it. It took us a while to be comfortable around the guy, or to engage in social activities with him. Once, after we declined an invitation to be part of a social even with him, he started sacrament meeting as Bishop’s Counselor with a “spiritual thought” — “to be social is to be forgiving”. It was clearly aimed at us, and was wholly inappropriate.

What an idiot. That was not his place. It ignored the pace of forgiveness that varies from person to person. Shame on anyone who expects people to forgive on someone else’s timeline. Shame on people who hurt others, and then call them out for not forgiving fast enough.

I recognize that forgiveness is the probably the best avenue to inner peace, but each person needs to reach that point in their own way, and on their own timelines. And the forgivee needs to stay out of it, other than to do the right thing and apologize or try to make restitution. After that, leave the wounded person alone to heal.

I am not sure what to do think of the Honor Code office at BYU. It certainly has bad press, and I hope my own daughter does not run into problems with it given her attractiveness, and the raging hormones of other people. She has been a victim before, and priesthood leaders — one who bothers me a lot — has tried to hold her accountable for what the others did to her. We need to be kind to the victims, weight the evidence, and exercise good judgment in how much we add to their pain.

Dingo I am very sorry for what you experienced.

I was also enraged at the story that you linked to. The author’s male Mormon friend gave her a ride to an all night party, drugged her (to be funny?!?!?!), and then left her to find her own way back home. 👿 👿 👿 👿 That to me seems to smack of depraved indifference and might need be reported to the authorities as a crime all its own!

I also very much agree with Nibbler that part of why people seem dismissive of sexual assaults is because of a just world hypothesis that people use to protect themselves (mentally).

This was a helpful viewpoint about the notion that forgiveness is often denial. https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/06/10/ … rspective/

Hawkgrrrl’s link to the post about denial masquerading as “forgiveness” was spot on and had much great insight to ponder. I believe that part of why Bishops might tend to sweep such things under the rug (in addition to all the other reasons before mentioned) and call it forgiveness is that to do otherwise is a daunting task. Cases of rape and abuse can tear families and congregations apart. They are complex, involving so many people. Police, lawyers, the stake leadership, the victim, the accused, family members of the victim and the accused – how big, unpredictable and uncontrollable of a mess might this be? The bishop can help to maintain the status quo or even keel of the ship by counseling forgiveness. All of this to me, reinforces that bishops are not the correct person to go to in cases like these. The bishop can be informed of the situation and the action that the family is taking as an FYI but he does not get to be a decision maker. The bishop may even be somewhat relieved that the decision is not left largely up to him. Bishops are well versed in the steps of repentance and when presented with situations outside their “wheelhouse” are likely to fall back on what they know. To a hammer every situation is a nail and to some bishops every situation is about the steps of repentance.

I am so sorry to hear about what happened. I cannot imagine all you have been through. I hope you find solace and peace.

Church leaders are often thought as representatives of Christ, who are in tune enough with the Spirit to speak for Him, and thereby provide the wisdrom Christ would give if He were here. That’s not always the case.

The truth is, we’re all struggling around in the dark, trying to make the best of the messy, complicated, and often painful experience we call life. At best, some of us occasionally will catch a glimpse of light, and hopefully gain a little guidance and a little wisdom. Bishops are faced with the strange and unfortunate task of being our “shepherds”; those whom we often trust with absolute confidence, but who are of themselves, filled with biases, worries, fears, prejudices, and foolishness (just like the rest of us). No one is constantly under the influence of the Spirit, because no one is worthy of it.

Bishops can and often do make mistakes. But I hope you will take comfort in the fact that most all of them will truly love you and have your best interests at heart.

Thanks Looking Glass and for what it’s worth i’ve come to agree with you, i think the worlds rape culture is likewise ramptant in the church, and is a result of the natural man trying to comfort himself and feel safe. It just saddens me when i also read victim blaming statements in church material the marriage handbook for example has several toxic paragraphs in the abuse section, albeit it does also have some inspired statements too, i just wish and think we should be able to hold our leaders of the church and even lay clergy upto a higher standard if we are to believe they are inspired of god. Heavenly father would never victim blame imho, any more than he would actually wish abuse on someone.

dingo – so sorry to hear both about your rape and then the added salt to that wound by a church leader. The only good little sliver in your brief story is how you were able to stand up for yourself a bit and then your bishop listened. I think as common as your initial experience with your bishop is, I don’t think most girls have the confidence to essentially correct a bishop. And for the small number that do, not all have a bishop that then reconsider’s their position. I fear the more common response from a bishop is to see this as not being humble and accepting responsibility for your action of sinning.

I have read cover to cover the Church Handbook of Instructions (both the first and the second). I actually studied the first book while I was in a bishopric. I do not recall coming away from this with any hint of “make damn sure that someone says they were raped that they were actually raped and didn’t go along with it.” But I do think that across much of the world rape culture is fairly rampant. This is especially in the church culture. I think many men assume if a women didn’t almost fight to the death that the woman was in some way allowing (or even wanting) the sex and thus have broken a commandment.

I think we see with the BYU honor code office / Title IX office issue and all the stories coming out of it that this is an area that church culture (mixed in with some polices) still needs to (a) acknowledge (b) start working to correct.

Sorry you have had to go through this. It sure sounds like you didn’t deserve this and didn’t do anything wrong. In fact you did what was right – you stood up for yourself. Be proud of that. I am proud of you for doing it.

I Agree Bishops are not the place to go for things like this but that is EXACTLY WHAT THE CHURCH TELLS YOU TO DO, the only reason i even brought my rape up with my bishop was because when reading the eternal marriage manual, when i got to the chapter on abuse i counted 15 x in one article the counsel to speak to my bishop, and since the article also stressed forgiveness from paragraph to paragraph, i decided to seek counsel from my bishop on what is actually meant by forgivess, because quite frankly the term is vauge and social understanding of it varies.

And thus this is a problem with church leadership, our lay clergy is not taught and not educated in church leadership and yet at every turn we are taught to go to them for their inspired advice, which brings me full circle to my discontent, If these men are suposidly inspired, then i want to know where the hell is it? cause i don’t see inspired men leading congregations, instead if see well meaning and well intentioned imperfect men doing with their best under there steam. It’s wrong, god has a time and a place for everything, the church imho needs to stop over using the ‘inspired’ ticket and overworking their bishops, if they expect their leaders to work miracles then they must do as god has repeatedly asked of all of us, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION

gahh this topic makes me mad- sorry

Dingo I am very sorry for what you experienced.

I was also enraged at the story that you linked to. The author’s male Mormon friend gave her a ride to an all night party, drugged her (to be funny?!?!?!), and then left her to find her own way back home. 👿 👿 👿 👿 That to me seems to smack of depraved indifference and might need be reported to the authorities as a crime all its own!

I also very much agree with Nibbler that part of why people seem dismissive of sexual assaults is because of a just world hypothesis that people use to protect themselves (mentally).

This was a helpful viewpoint about the notion that forgiveness is often denial. https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/06/10/ … rspective/

Hawkgrrrl’s link to the post about denial masquerading as “forgiveness” was spot on and had much great insight to ponder. I believe that part of why Bishops might tend to sweep such things under the rug (in addition to all the other reasons before mentioned) and call it forgiveness is that to do otherwise is a daunting task. Cases of rape and abuse can tear families and congregations apart. They are complex, involving so many people. Police, lawyers, the stake leadership, the victim, the accused, family members of the victim and the accused – how big, unpredictable and uncontrollable of a mess might this be? The bishop can help to maintain the status quo or even keel of the ship by counseling forgiveness. All of this to me, reinforces that bishops are not the correct person to go to in cases like these. The bishop can be informed of the situation and the action that the family is taking as an FYI but he does not get to be a decision maker. The bishop may even be somewhat relieved that the decision is not left largely up to him. Bishops are well versed in the steps of repentance and when presented with situations outside their “wheelhouse” are likely to fall back on what they know. To a hammer every situation is a nail and to some bishops every situation is about the steps of repentance.